Tithing…Is it a command?

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

The Bible forbids wearing mixed fabrics. The Bible commands a man to marry his brother’s wife to raise up children in his brother’s name…even if he’s already married. The Bible commands animal sacrifices....

Everything from the Old must come through the cross. As we bring things through the cross we find some things are done away with, some are changed, and some remain unchanged.

Worship is OT and as we bring it through the cross we see that it has been changed. NT worship is in Spirit and truth while OT worship is more of an outward manifestation. That's why David could get away with stripping as he worshiped, and why there is such a focus on banners and different natural forms of worship.

Each of the items you present we could do a Bible study to show that for a specific reason they have stopped. Easiest one is Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and thus no more sacrifices needed.

You can not find any scriptures stating that the tithe has changed. Thus Hebrew 7 tells us that it is received as explained in the law.

Bro…every command of Scripture is given in a specific context.

It is interesting that you make this point because in the House Church thread you seem to discount any arguments of specific context.

Can you offer a New Testament example (or precedent) and/or teaching regarding the tithe in the Epistles? Yes or no?

Yes, but you don't believe Hebrews 7

Nobody is looking for ways not to give. The issue is that if it is a “command” it’s a Heaven or Hell issue. If it is a “command” it would meaning that one better not even think they can go to Heaven unless they are currently able to begin tithing immediately.

This may be the source of your struggle. We are commanded to study the Word. Does not studying mean you will not go to heaven? I doubt it, there will probably be a lot of biblically dense people in heaven who lived right.

We are commanded to go to church. Does that mean one has to have their 15 year perfect attendance pin to make it to heaven. No, there will be people who could have been much more faithful that make it to heaven.

What does it mean? There is a cemetery just down the street full of dead Christians who died prematurely, lived broke, and struggled through life. Had they studied more, prayed more, lived cleaner they could have tapped into everything God had promised.

2 Pet 1:3
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: (KJV)

A person lack of knowledge will make their life full of destruction, which is why God said through the Prophet Hosea, "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge..."

God will send the storm and in it you will find that God’s not impressed with performance, and God isn’t keeping a tab.

I think I will stick with the Word...it's not God that brings the storms and it appears He is interested in performance since faith without works is dead:

James 1:12-13
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (KJV)

James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (KJV)

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (KJV)

I wouldn't be so quick to think that you don't have an account in heaven that is being tabulated:

Phil 4:17
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. (KJV)

You will find humility and understanding toward those who are truly “in need” (instead of judging or casting blame).

True humility is submission to the Word not one's opinion of how nice someone is. It is interesting in a discussion like this every time someone makes a statement that, "The Word says this" and what they say is contrary to the other persons opinion they determine it is judging or casting blame.

As far as casting blame, when things are not working in my own life I blame myself not the Bible or God. The Bible I read states that Jesus has all power and authority, the devil is defeated, and I am an overcomer. If I don't live that way, whose to blame? ME!

We live in a society that wants to shift all the blame on someone else, the economy, the boss, mom & dad. The only way external forces can influence our life is if we submit ourselves to the worlds system.

• Get in debt - it's your choice
  
• Look to your job for your prosperity - it's your choice
  
• Trust in the police, fire, and army for your protection - it's your choice

I just choose to trust God and His Word and if something happens that's contrary to what God has promised, I'm just dense enough to think I missed it someplace.

You will experience a higher dimension of God’s grace that will inspire you to give even more…not out of obeying a command…but out of love.

You would be AMAZED at the grace, favor, and authority I live in. I can guarantee you that you live under more laws than I do. I do not have a legalistic bone in my body.

The reason I live the way I do is because I love the Word! I love Jesus and Jesus said, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."
(John 15:14 - KJV)

Not only do I love the Word and the Lord, I love people. We all know that God loves us so much that He will allow us to choose a life to go to hell. He is not going to make anyone accept Him.

I allow people to be people, but if asked - I will tell the truth and be straight about it. I am not going to assume that I have authority to tell a person to take what is God's an use it on themself because they are in a difficult situation.

I had a family one time whose the parents didn't know the first thing about parenting. They had given me permission to speak into their life. I sat them down with my wife and spoke to them. My wife was afraid to move, the mother looked down starring at the table, and the dad sat dumb-founded.

When we left my wife told me, "Don't ever take me to anything like that. I can't believe you told them what you said."

The next time I saw the couple they told me, "Thank you! No one has ever cared enough about us to speak into our lives that way. We've talked about it and we don't want out daughter to experience the same things that have had to experience."

The dad was a PK who had been in jail and drugs. I was willing to lose the friendship to help them because I love them. I did not want that little girl's (4 at the time) life to be ruined because they would not be parents.

Will a person go to hell for not tithing. I don't know, God is the judge of all things. Would I gamble on it? Absolutely not! Just like I wouldn't gamble on not reading my Bible, not praying, or not going to church. I want more of God in my life and I have found that the more I do what that Bible says the more i experience Him.

It amazes me how Christians put the bumper sticker on their car that states, "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it" when in fact they really don't. I don't want to be found in this camp. I would rather do something in honor of God that I didn't need to do, then find out that what I thought was only a suggestion was actually more important than I thought.

As far as the law is concerned, to think that it is all done away with is foolish because the 10 commandments were part of it. There is nothing that says the 10 C's were done away with. In it God says, "Thou shalt not steal." The things in the Old that were an abomination to God are still an abomination. He said that when we keep the tithe and offering we are stealing. As I said, "God is the judge" I don't know if not tithing would send someone to hell, but I would never even potentially mess with someone's eternity. This is one of the reasons I disagree so much with the Pastor who told you not to bring the tithe so that you could take care of the mammon problems.

This board is a discussion, it' fun, I like the debate, it's interesting to hear what others have to say. A time or two I've seen a good point that I have never considered.

Don't get offended over my positions, I'm just discussing. What I discuss is not what I learned in college it's what I have experienced. I often have people try to argue with me. I ask them if they would rather be right or successful. Too many argue to be right, but what I have found to be true is, "if it's God it works."

Too many people hold on to their theologies that aren't working. It's only my opinion of the Word.

[ChristopherHall]

Hebrews 7 isn't about tithing. Do you know what it's about Gloryseeker? I ask this because so many that I know who are big tithing advocates reference it in regards to the tithe...but the never seem to grasp that it's not about the tithe...it's about something far deeper.

I honestly think we're not so far apart on the issue. My point however is that tithing, as you have come to know it, like most "churchianity" we've talked about in the house church thread isn't an explicit command in the NT.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

As far as the law is concerned, to think that it is all done away with is foolish because the 10 commandments were part of it. There is nothing that says the 10 C's were done away with. In it God says, "Thou shalt not steal." The things in the Old that were an abomination to God are still an abomination. He said that when we keep the tithe and offering we are stealing. As I said, "God is the judge" I don't know if not tithing would send someone to hell, but I would never even potentially mess with someone's eternity.

The entire law was fulfilled, and done away with. But i you say not, why don't you keep the sabbath? If the sabbath applies, then would tithing.

[ChristopherHall]

I've always heard the saying, "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it". But I think that's unbiblical. Here's why...God said it...that settles it...rather we believe it or not. LOL

Now we have to know what God speaks in regards to each dispensation. We also have to know what God doesn't say in each dispensation and allow silence to be that...silence. We speak where God speaks and we are silent when God is silent. We never see the church tithing in the NT and we never see it written as a subject addressed in any Epistle where one would naturally expect it if it were an absolute necessity. The book of Acts gives us a solid pattern to follow (case law if you will), the Epistles give us commentary on managing the church. Something as important as a command to tithe would be something prominent in the Epistles.

Now, is tithing "biblical", yes, it's in the Bible. Are their principles involved that may be applied to the church during the church age? Yes. But remember, the issue is it being a "command" in the New Testament.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Jason

The entire law was fulfilled, and done away with. But i you say not, why don't you keep the sabbath? If the sabbath applies, then would tithing.

For the same reason that I explained regarding the other issues of the law. We have specific instruction in the NT that changed it:

Rom 14:5-6
5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day {alike.} Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. (NAS)

In the law it states that we are not to have sex with animals (Lev 18:23), but the NT is silent on this subject. Therefore, since the law has been done away with I guess you would support this theology? Of course not.

Let the Bible interpret itself! What was abominable under the law is abominable in the NT. God does not change!

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Sam

So, tithing as taught in churches today is just another Romish doctrine brought over from the Roman Catholic church like purgatory, use of statues in worship, division into clergy and laity, and other such stuff.

Tithing as taught in churches today was never practiced. I'm not saying it's wrong or bad, I'm just saying that technically what most Christians believe about tithing wasn't practiced in the Bible.

The first time the "tithe" is mentioned we see that it was an act of worship done by Abraham. It wasn't mandated or commanded. It was as Abraham had purposed in his heart. It was also a one time event and included strictly the plunder from Sodom. We have no evidence that Abraham tithed on a regular basis. Especially since even the first tithe wasn't of his own goods and Abraham was highly mobile throughout the region.

Tithing under the Law was primarily agricultural and with livestock. Also there were three tithes, one for the Levites, one for the Temple festivities, and a third year's poor tithe. All of this was done away with when the Old Covenant system was superseded by the New Covenant system.

In the NT we see that free will offerings were gathered to support the widows, to relieve fellow saints who were suffering under difficult circumstances, and to pay for the travels of evangelists. These evangelists typically worked with their own hands while in a given town. They didn't salary elders nor did they have a building fund to steadily contribute to. They didn't tithe of livestock nor their crops as commanded in the OT.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

In the law it states that we are not to have sex with animals (Lev 18:23), but the NT is silent on this subject. Therefore, since the law has been done away with I guess you would support this theology? Of course not.

Ye do err knowing not the Scriptures....it is written,

Acts 15:20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

1 Cor 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Cor 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

1 Cor 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

The term "fornication" is a broad term including any form of sexual sin including bestiality, homosexuality, or any other illicit sexual practice connected with or patterned after those idolatrous practices found among the heathen nations.

So yes...it's covered in the NT.

Where is the tithe covered as being a commandment in the NT?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

For the same reason that I explained regarding the other issues of the law. We have specific instruction in the NT that changed it:

Rom 14:5-6
5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day {alike.} Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. (NAS)

In the law it states that we are not to have sex with animals (Lev 18:23), but the NT is silent on this subject. Therefore, since the law has been done away with I guess you would support this theology? Of course not.

Let the Bible interpret itself! What was abominable under the law is abominable in the NT. God does not change!

Glory,
this scripture is my point, the law was done away with, we don't have to keep the sabbath because it is not in effect, neither tithing. While the NT is silent on sex with animals, it teaches a considerably higher moral standard than the OT, thus in the very least strongly implying that any sexual activity outside of marriage is sin. However, lest we digress, the issue is really tithing, though perhaps in another thread we could discuss the law soon (?).

In my opinion this thread has ran its coure, the topic is interesting, and merits further discussion. But as for the title, "Titing is it a commmand?" I would have to say that it is quite obvious that there is absolutely NO NT scripture that shows or tells us that tithing is a command upon christians, however there is an abundance of scripture that strongly encourages christians to give, and that the ministry has the right to live off of those offerings, yet there is no set %.

T

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Jason

Glory,
this scripture is my point, the law was done away with, we don't have to keep the sabbath because it is not in effect, neither tithing. While the NT is silent on sex with animals, it teaches a considerably higher moral standard than the OT, thus in the very least strongly implying that any sexual activity outside of marriage is sin. However, lest we digress, the issue is really tithing, though perhaps in another thread we could discuss the law soon (?).

In my opinion this thread has ran its coure, the topic is interesting, and merits further discussion. But as for the title, "Titing is it a commmand?" I would have to say that it is quite obvious that there is absolutely NO NT scripture that shows or tells us that tithing is a command upon christians, however there is an abundance of scripture that strongly encourages christians to give, and that the ministry has the right to live off of those offerings, yet there is no set %.

T

It may be argued that the Law's stipulation of 10% serves as an example to live by. I can see that. Also, I can see church bylaws asking that members in good standing give tithes to support the work. Don't get me wrong. I believe in tithing. I've always been a tither, accept when times were tough and with our pastor's counsel he admonished us to take care of the problem. And we always made it up. I'm not saying that tithing is bad or wrong. I'm just saying that I don't see it as a command in the NT. Some folks always need a law to command them to do something. Others just do it out of love and a desire to give. I don't expect anything back from my tithes either. Like I said above, I'm not a believer in the "magic tithe" doctrine. I don't think that just because one tithes they will be blessed with financial prosperity. Most often God's blessings come in ways that are intangible.

But as far as the NT goes...I see no command either. I could be wrong and God have mercy on me if I am. But I'm still asking for solid Scripture on it...not inference.

[tbpew]

I am just feeling to insert a perspective...

The LAW has not been DONE AWAY with, the Law, which is good, has been fullfilled in its purpose through a way made at Calvary. The counsels witnessed by the law are now available within the hearts of men to establish MOTIVE prior to action/works; the unseen establishing that which is rendered apparent.

What ever admonitions and instruction to be lived in the visible conduct of men, should now be lived by having the authoring principle established in our motive that resides within our heart.

So for me, I must consider what principle was being demonstrated in the temporal realm concerning the tithe, and then determine if that principle is fullfilled in my life that is now led by the Spirit.