David Bernard Weighs In on General Board Decision

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Very interesting comparison to the Emacipation Proclamation, Grif.

The decision to create a new division for SEM is curious at best since it will create new salaried positions months after layoff in PPH (which I hear is bleeding) ... and scratching those who were involved in translating materials into Spanish since that was in the red also.

Perhaps it's a good time to start a publishing company with a Spanish branch??

[Newman]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

With all due respect it is only "retrenching" IF you are correctly reading between the lines and applying a secret da Vinci code.

You may well be right. Personally I'm willing to take what the man says at face value for now.

Di Vinci Code? Who on this thread doesn't believe he was talking about standards when he spoke of holiness and separation? I in fact am taking what he said at face value. He wrote of:

1. maintaining our identity as a holiness movement

2. upholding our positions in this area

3. as stated in the Articles of Faith.

Note he talks about the Articles of Faith and not the Word of God...


"The UPCI Position on Holiness and Separation from the World. The General Board had an extended discussion of the importance of maintaining our identity as a holiness movement and upholding our positions in this area as stated in the Articles of Faith. There was a consensus that we need to reaffirm these teachings, and the general superintendent will write a letter to our constituency to express our commitment to them. At the same time, the General Board concluded that it is not enough simply to reaffirm our position, but we must implement practical ways to teach biblical holiness. To accomplish this goal, various means will be employed, including publications, General Conference, Global Impact, and other methods. On a related note, the General Youth Division presented some exciting plans for Youth Congress in 2009 that will incorporate this goal in a positive way while avoiding some problems and concerns that have occurred in the past. The General Youth Division will also develop platform guidelines for Youth Congress and Bible Quizzing participants."

[SDG]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Danielito how could hot latin blood not reinvigorate?

On the other hand, most of the Apostolic Latins I personally have encountered lean a little right of center.

Agreed they fit nicely.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

With all due respect it is only "retrenching" IF you are correctly reading between the lines and applying a secret da Vinci code.

You may well be right. Personally I'm willing to take what the man says at face value for now.

I was a product of JCM, I changed.

Many of the ultra-cons of yesteryear are now moderates on this forum.

Bernard and many his age WANT to escape the old paradigms.

(And yes AE I am aware of DB's hardcore positions of two decades ago, but I also believe him a man of integrity and willing to evolve.)

It used to be UPCI "doctrine" that the doctrine of the Trinity was "invented at Nicea." To even suggest otherwise was heretical and a "compromise with 3 gods!"

Back about 16 or so years ago David Bernard published his books Oneness and Trinity A.D. 100 - 200; The Doctrine of God in Ancient Christian Writings and The Trinitarian Controversy of the Fourth Century, and he overturned our parochial view of this debate. Finally, it seemed to me, we could discuss the issue in an intelligent way.

There are still so many things that we cling to out of fear of "compromise." Our understanding of the source of some of the voices who cry "compromise" all the time has been greatly aided by Thomas Fudge's book. But there are a lot of voices in the UPC world itself that have been seeking a platform for years.

If we could get over our "invented at Nicea" nonsense and actually not be afraid to talk about the complexities within the Godhead, then I have some hope that we might continue to grow.

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

How far can this go? Well, as far as reactions can take it. Far too little action and far too much reaction. Nothing has changed nor is it likely to.

The organization has gone into "protection" mode. If numbers go down, offerings go down. If offerings go down, income to the "vatican" goes down. If income to the "vatican" goes down, jobs will have to be cut......

Bro....I love you....you know that....But is this constant lingo necessary?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Newman

Sounds like a death march to me... First they lose the Conservatives and now they want to alienate the Liberals?

The UPC will not be stronger by trying to prove to the Conservatives that the UPC can keep a dress standard from 50 years ago. Competitive holiness isn't going to do anyone good. There are too many other choices out there now and too much internet access not to know it.

Instead, let the individual churches seek God about the matter. Let's teach about the fruit of the Spirit, loving our neighbors, and fleeing pornography, fornication and adultery.

Let's teach where the rubber meets the road in the 21st century fully realizing that technology is here to stay. We aren't in Kansas anymore.

Don't hold your breath.

[joyful]

Originally Posted by Newman

Di Vinci Code? Who on this thread doesn't believe he was talking about standards when he spoke of holiness and separation? I in fact am taking what he said at face value. He wrote of:

1. maintaining our identity as a holiness movement

2. upholding our positions in this area

3. as stated in the Articles of Faith.

Note he talks about the Articles of Faith and not the Word of God...

Newman, I also believe that DB was speaking of standards. For the reasons you stated above and also in the reference to "platform guidelines" for Bible Quizzing and Youth Congress. The word "standards" may not have been used, but reading the whole paragraph in context leaves little doubt that they are being referred to.

[SDG]

DB said:

On a related note, the General Youth Division presented some exciting plans for Youth Congress in 2009 that will incorporate this goal in a positive way while avoiding some problems and concerns that have occurred in the past

Can you say DORA THE EXPLORER???

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Newman

Sounds like a death march to me... First they lose the Conservatives and now they want to alienate the Liberals?

The UPC will not be stronger by trying to prove to the Conservatives that the UPC can keep a dress standard from 50 years ago. Competitive holiness isn't going to do anyone good. There are too many other choices out there now and too much internet access not to know it.

Instead, let the individual churches seek God about the matter. Let's teach about the fruit of the Spirit, loving our neighbors, and fleeing pornography, fornication and adultery.

Let's teach where the rubber meets the road in the 21st century fully realizing that technology is here to stay. We aren't in Kansas anymore.

Newwoman,

This is exactly what I predicted. I posted that if the TV resolution passed the UPC would temporarily take a hard dive to the right and heavily emphasize standards to try and demonstrate (by overcompensation) that they still have "street cred" when it comes to old time "holiness" and "seperation".

Your post I quoted above hits the nail on the head about the consequences of this.

I don't think it will appease the conservatives who have been whining and griping about the UPC's "direction" for years now and it certainly won't be welcomed by progressive / liberal UPCers who looked on the passage of the TV resolution as just a step in the UPC moderating.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by CC1

Newwoman,

This is exactly what I predicted. I posted that if the TV resolution passed the UPC would temporarily take a hard dive to the right and heavily emphasize standards to try and demonstrate (by overcompensation) that they still have "street cred" when it comes to old time "holiness" and "seperation".

Your post I quoted above hits the nail on the head about the consequences of this.

I don't think it will appease the conservatives who have been whining and griping about the UPC's "direction" for years now and it certainly won't be welcomed by progressive / liberal UPCers who looked on the passage of the TV resolution as just a step in the UPC moderating.

There were signs of this w/ KH's message at conference ... which could've come out of one the Godair's sermon notes.