We Must Rethink A Few Things

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

So there are times when one is going to have to separate, or even oppose, their "authority", right. I believe it is to be done in a right spirit. I personally believe that there are times that it is Gods will that there be a separation, as in the case of Paul and Barnabas.

I am all for being submitted to the authority over you. But I feel like you are making it a blanket statement, and there is never, ever any time when one would pull away from their authority. I do not agree. The apostolic movement of the 20th century was birthed out of men leaving the authority for what they believed was right.

If you will recall how the Apostolic movement (as we know it) pulled out of the AOG in 1915 (if I recall the date) it was not over a mundane resolution that did not affect anyone's salvation as does the codified doctrine of Trinity.

The Oneness (New Issue) men that walked out of the Conference in Arkansas did not walk out until it was seen that there was ABSOLUTELY no way to further work within the structure after the doctrine of the Trinity was firmly ensconced within its creed. Even then, some still tried.

They had been preaching the Oneness message within the AOG for many months, far and wide, drawing converts to the message until at last, there was not more possible way to work within the AOG.

Their exit was a godly, gentlemanly, friendly and humble way that the gang of Tulsaites would do well to imitate. Even after their exit, they continued their efforts to reach out to their Trinitarian "bretheren" with love for decades afterwards.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

So you believe Haywood and Goss should have stayed in the AoG?

See my last post.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

So, in light of the TRUTH of the power of the Word...WHY NOT SAVE THE REST OF US LOST SOULS?

They have already forsaken us, having loved this present world.

Love of television is a perfectly acceptable litmus test to me. I agree with the precept of suspecting anybody that wants that garbage, designed with malice aforethought to corrupt and pervert minds and turn people away from God, poured into their homes, their minds, and their children's minds.

[Apprehended]

I also want to point out that the SPIRIT involved in a SPLIT is as ugly, bloody, murderous, and as ungodly as anything can be. I've seen too many church splits to not KNOW what I am talking about.

This Tulsa gang that chooses to walk this road may well do so but they must KNOW that the SPIRIT of the the SPLIT will also walk with them, RIGHT INTO THEIR OWN CHURCHES.

Many of these men are DESTINED to wring their hands, walking the floor at night as they watch with horror as their own churches split without them able to control it in the least. While they are wringing their hands lamenting their SPLIT, let them then REMEMBER that it is the spirit of the split that they had close FELLOWSHIP with from the beginning.

The core of the spirit of the SPLIT IS MURDER. According to Jude, it is the WAY OF CAIN.

So, who wants to talk about HOLINESS?

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

They have already forsaken us, having loved this present world.

Love of television is a perfectly acceptable litmus test to me. I agree with the precept of suspecting anybody that wants that garbage, designed with malice aforethought to corrupt and pervert minds and turn people away from God, poured into their homes, their minds, and their children's minds.

ESSENTIALLY, you are correct. But the method of the SPLIT is not correct. There is a remedy for sin, if what you see is indeed sin...PREACH THE WORD to all of the rest of us that need it so badly. There is no restrictions in the UPC for preaching the Word. I know a lot of both district and general officials that would WELCOME you to step forward and PREACH against sin, exposing it from the Word of God.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

ESSENTIALLY, you are correct. But the method of the SPLIT is not correct. There is a remedy for sin, if what you see is indeed sin...PREACH THE WORD to all of the rest of us that need it so badly. There is no restrictions in the UPC for preaching the Word. I know a lot of both district and general officials that would WELCOME you to step forward and PREACH against sin, exposing it from the Word of God.

It wouldn't accomplish anything.

The church I attend hears teaching on the evils of television, from the Pastor, on average 2 or 3 times a month. Nevertheless, most have television and many have cable. I guess they just don't care, or figure that they can control it, or that the perils of their little bit of entertainment are overexaggerated. The spirit of Laodicea is upon the laity and ministry alike. People are bored with church, and bored with "the rules."

People are going to do what people want to do. And if people would rather get a few crude laughs than re-consecrate their lives, nothing that's said from the pulpit is going to change that.

We haven't made enough effort that each new generation of pentecostals raised in church receives their OWN revelation of key precepts and principles. When you have a family tradition, you have a boring list of rules. When you have your own walk with God and your own revelations, you have a love for holiness and separation.

We'd almost be better off starting out with a bunch of new converts that are already sick of the world and are ready to be taught about God.

It really is almost as though the multi-generationals are the ones yearning for more and more tastes of the world, and it is left to us that came to salvation as adults to stand against the things of this world.

[Apprehended]

OPC,

You have a very weak argument.

I do not believe in the impotence of the Word of God.

If there is something wrong with the soil to receive seed, then, PREACH the Word and prepare the soil.

The Word is not without POWER.

[OP_Carl]

Others would call it tilting at windmills.

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

I also want to point out that the SPIRIT involved in a SPLIT is as ugly, bloody, murderous, and as ungodly as anything can be. I've seen too many church splits to not KNOW what I am talking about.

This Tulsa gang that chooses to walk this road may well do so but they must KNOW that the SPIRIT of the the SPLIT will also walk with them, RIGHT INTO THEIR OWN CHURCHES.

Many of these men are DESTINED to wring their hands, walking the floor at night as they watch with horror as their own churches split without them able to control it in the least. While they are wringing their hands lamenting their SPLIT, let them then REMEMBER that it is the spirit of the split that they had close FELLOWSHIP with from the beginning.

The core of the spirit of the SPLIT IS MURDER. According to Jude, it is the WAY OF CAIN.

The funny thing is, the only spirit I have seen coming from the Tulsa deal IS one of men that simply feel they must follow their convictions and separate, because to do otherwise could ........ the future generation. The Ugly Spirit seems, for the most part, to be coming from those that venomously judge them to hell for following those convictions.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

The funny thing is, the only spirit I have seen coming from the Tulsa deal IS one of men that simply feel they must follow their convictions and separate, because to do otherwise could ........ the future generation. The Ugly Spirit seems, for the most part, to be coming from those that venomously judge them to hell for following those convictions.

Hell? I don't remember seeing THAT word thrown around.

At any rate, I too would say that to "venomously judge them to hell for following convitions," is indeed an ugly spirit. That should not be so.

Be that it as it may, someone needs to tell the truth and start preaching the Word of God if they are SOOOOOOO much under conviction, rather than acting like Apostolic Infants that insist on THEIR way, or else...

If the future generation is damned it will not be because the T6 did not separate...gracious! If the future generations are damned, it will be because they did not preach the good Word of God that is impregnated with LIFE...eternal LIFE.

They don't need to be SPLITING, they need to take up the weapons of their warfare which are NOT CARNAL such as spliting, busting up, and acting like religious juveniles.

I got a plan! LIFT UP JESUS. There's something about that that will draw the whole world to Him. He is the answer to every human woe. Splitting up is NOT the answer to human malaise. The Word of God and lifting up JESUS rather than SELF...just plain old stinking, carnal SELF displayed by this charade is NOT the answer.