KH believes the Light Doctrine??

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Thad

CC1 is entitled not to believe us but I'm telling you , it is a fact that he believed AND taught it AND i have heard it from one of his .... Close relatives who also believes it. we had a long talk on the bus going out of state on a tour once about this doctrine.

Dave, who is related will also vouch for this

Thad,

It is not a matter of not believing. I hold Keith in high esteem and don't doubt his credibility.

My position is just one of principle. I don't feel comfortable debating a view ascribed to a person that is not one they have made record of either through sermons, books, articles, etc.

[Sam]

When I came to Cincinnati, Ohio in 1957 my pastor was Bro. F.E. Curts. He was also the Dist. Supt. of the Ohio District. He taught similar to Bro. Norris. There were some differences in his teaching from that of Bro. Norris. Bro. Curts taught that in the Old Testament, those who received the Holy Ghost had the evidence of prophecy and in the New Testament the evidence was speaking with tongues. All those who had received this "prophecy" evidence in the Old Testament would be in the rapture. Only those who had been baptized in Jesus' name and baptized in the Spirit (spoke with tongues) in the New Testament would be in the rapture. He taught that babies and small children who had not received water and Spirit baptisms would be orphaned and left alone on the earth when their parents went in the rapture. He taught that at the second resurrection, all those who had not been in the rapture or who had not given their lives in the tribulation would be resurrected and judged by how they had walked in the light they had. He taught that people who had sincerely served God but did not obey Acts 2:38 would go to Heaven at the great white throne judgment.

Bro. Curts was highly respected and considered a very capable teacher. He influenced a lot of preachers with his teaching.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Yanking your chain, Newman ... on your view of multiple ways to salvation

Osteen a while back on Larry King Live :

On Larry King Live, the following very disturbing conversation occurred with Larry King and Joel Osteen:

KING: What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all?
OSTEEN: You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know ...

At this point, even Larry King appears surprised by Osteen’s answer. Then Larry tosses Osteen a "soft-ball" to explain his previous answer. And again Osteen openly denies that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way of salvation.

KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?
OSTEEN: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God will judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.

Again Osteen denies the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Notice, he praises the pagan, false-religion of India as "I know they love God." Unbelievable. . .
I’m sure some reading this are thinking, "Well, maybe Larry caught Joel Osteen flat footed. Maybe Osteen wasn’t prepared." If Osteen only had been given another chance to testify of the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ, he’d get it straightened out.
Osteen did get another chance. . .
After Larry King opened the phone lines, a concerned Christian asks Joel to clarify his previous statement (which we just viewed). Again Osteen could easily clear this up.

CALLER: Hello, Larry. You're the best, and thank you, Joe -- Joel -- for your positive messages and your book. I'm wondering, though, why you side-stepped Larry's earlier question about how we get to heaven? The Bible clearly tells us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light and the only way to the father is through him. That's not really a message of condemnation but of truth.
OSTEEN: Yes, I would agree with her. I believe that. . .
KING: So then a Jew is not going to heaven?
OSTEEN: No. Here's my thing, Larry, is I can't judge somebody's heart. You know? Only God can look at somebody's heart, and so -- I don't know. To me, it's not my business to say, you know, this one is or this one isn't. I just say, here's what the Bible teaches and I'm going to put my faith in Christ. And I just I think it's wrong when you go around saying, you're saying you're not going, you're not going, you're not going, because it's not exactly my way. I'm just...
KING: But you believe your way.
OSTEEN: I believe my way. I believe my way with all my heart.
KING: But for someone who doesn't share it is wrong, isn't he?
OSTEEN: Well, yes. Well, I don't know if I look at it like that. I would present my way, but I'm just going to let God be the judge of that. I don't know. I don't know.
KING: So you make no judgment on anyone?
OSTEEN: No. But I...

And here Larry really tosses Joel a soft-ball. How about a God-defying atheist? And again, Osteen will not confess that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way of salvation.

KING: What about atheists?
OSTEEN: You know what, I'm going to let someone -- I'm going to let God be the judge of who goes to heaven and hell. I just -- again, I present the truth, and I say it every week. You know, I believe it's a relationship with Jesus. But you know what? I'm not going to go around telling everybody else if they don't want to believe that that's going to be their choice. God's got to look at your own heart. God's got to look at your heart, and only God knows that.



http://www.av1611.org/osteen.html

I think Joel did a very poor job of trying to express that we are witnesses, not judges.

I agree with him that it is God who will judge every human being and not us BUT he also should have not embraced fully and without qualification the scripture that says Jesus is the only way.

[Truly Blessed]

If Oneness Pentecostals hadn't redefined what "born again" means and put words into the mouth of Jesus that He never spoke to Nicodemus, then one could honestly testify with those who first experienced the baptism of the Holy Ghost in the early 1900's, "I thank God that He saved me and filled me with the Holy Ghost."

[Sam]

I saw the Joel Osteen interview with Larry King and thought he did not do well. He later apologized for the way he had handled it.

I don't know how well I would have done on tv before the whole world when questioned like that by Larry King. I hope I could lovingly and firmly quote the words of Jesus in John 14:6, the words of the Apostle Peter in Acts 4:12, and the words of the Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5 and say that this is how I understand the Bible but only God is our Judge.

By the way, anybody see any of Larry's interviews with Tammy Faye? I don't know what your opinion of her might have been but she was a very open and sincere witness for Jesus on his show. She also plainly let it be known that she had been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

[Sam]

This is from page 7 of Bishop G.T. Haywood's book on the Resurrection of the Dead. This man was very respected among Oneness Pentecostals and had a great influence on preachers and teachers.

The Second Resurrection.
According to the inspired word of God the resurrection of the
"blessed and Holy" is completed a thousand years before the second
resurrection. It is from this point that we are obliged to note the
difference between partakers of the two resurrections.
After the thousand years expire "the rest of the dead" (those who
did not come forth in the first resurrection) both righteous and
wicked, live again and are made to stand before God. It is then that
Jesus separates them as a shepherd divideth the sheep from the goat
according to Matt. 25:31-46.
In this resurrection is included all the righteous men of all
ages who walked in all the light that they were given. It is my candid
opinion that all heathen, Israelites, Christian professors who have
never heard the true gospel of Christ and those who die during
the millennium, walking in the light of their times will be given
eternal life at the last resurrection.
Many righteous people have died without the Holy Ghost and
the question has been asked: "Where will they come in?" They shall be
given eternal life in the last day. They shall inherit the New
Earth where life eternal reigns because "there shall be no more death.
If we desire to take part in the first resurrection we must be
filled with the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. It
is the church of the First-born that takes part in the first
resurrection. To enter into that Church, which is his body, we must be
baptized into it by both water and the Spirit. (See John 3:5; Rom.
6:3-5; 1 Cor. 12:12, 13; Gal. 3:26-28.

Originally Posted by pelathais

I respect you, but the "terrible three-steppers" seems like you're putting words into my mouth. I never said "terrible."

I know ol boy, didn't mean to have you thinking that I was putting words into your mouth. I take full responsibility for putting it there.

As to the statement bolded above, yes. The vast majority of Anabaptists were not Oneness.

Let's just say majority, vast is sure to be overstepping it.

The term was used rather broadly to describe a lot of different groups- basically any group that did not accept infant baptism. However the attempts by some Oneness historians to label the movement as "Oneness" is just plain wrong.

I agree, the movement as a whole seems to be as diverse as Christendom itself.

I disagree. Cornelius (Acts 10) is actually a good example of the "light doctrine."

I suppose if you leave out key words, phrases, and events, it would work marvelously to that end.

It seems that you are troubled by the "three stepper" way, yourself. I don't blame you. But then you contradict yourself and appear to put your faith in "the three steps."

No contradiction. The trouble with three steppers is that they are often a few steps shorts...the steps that they take aren't bad. We aren't saved at repentance no more than at the end of the New Birth. The New Birth is where the initial process is complete, but we aren't saved until the end. Notice the many phrases "shall be saved." You see it is dangerous to pick any one or three aspects of the total process of salvation that the Bible shares and call it done. We must put it all together and live it. When we do we are on the path to eternal life wherein we shall be saved if we make it to the end, wherever that may be.

Your final words of admonition are well taken. I think that is what John Dearing was saying in that article I posted earlier; and I think that's what Cornelius' example leads us to conclude as well. We are on a journey and haven't hit the end of the road yet. And "the end" is one of the few things we can all be absolutely certain about.

I haven't read the article, but the Cornelius example leads us to witness the New Birth fulfillment of Acts 2:38 as we see it elsewhere as well.

It's a free universe, all are welcome to bypass Acts 2:38 and feel as though they are going to make it. I believe that half of the virgins thought they were in good shape too, yet what a fearful and eternally permanent disappointment. Reminds me of something I read in Matt 7 as well. I would also caution classic three steppers that they beware not to bypass their own short comings and set the course and cruise.

Yes, "the end" is certain, but what it marks the beginning of for some is not.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by CC1

I think Joel did a very poor job of trying to express that we are witnesses, not judges.

I agree with him that it is God who will judge every human being and not us BUT he also should have not embraced fully and without qualification the scripture that says Jesus is the only way.

Joel Osteen is a great disappointment. He doesn't have the convictions of even a Baptist like Franklin Graham. Either we believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, or we don't! He says he doesn't want to judge. He just wants to tell folks the truth, yet he's not willing to tell the truth to Larry King.

An Elder recently said to me after I had preached what he thought was too strong a message, "We don't need to be told what's wrong with us. We just need someone to preach messages that will make us feel good." Joel Osteen is one who specializes in this.

I will repeat what I have said to this Elder and others. Let's say you have a terminal illness, but the doctor examining you doesn't have the courage to tell you the truth. So, instead he tells you that having examined you he is pleased to inform you that you have excellent hearing, a strong heart, and healthy lungs and sends you away feeling good about your physical health, although you still have some unexplained internal pain.

You decide to get a second opinion and this doctor confirms that you have excellent hearing, a strong heart, and healthy lungs, but you have pancreatic cancer and only six months to live. Which doctor truly cared about you? The one who told you only the "good news" or the one who told you the truth?

We need to be committed to telling the truth regardless of the awkwardness of doing so.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Joel Osteen is a great disappointment. He doesn't have the convictions of even a Baptist like Franklin Graham. Either we believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, or we don't! He says he doesn't want to judge. He just wants to tell folks the truth, yet he's not willing to tell the truth to Larry King.

An Elder recently said to me after I had preached what he thought was too strong a message, "We don't need to be told what's wrong with us. We just need someone to preach messages that will make us feel good." Joel Osteen is one who specializes in this.

I will repeat what I have said to this Elder and others. Let's say you have a terminal illness, but the doctor examining you doesn't have the courage to tell you the truth. So, instead he tells you that having examined you he is pleased to inform you that you have excellent hearing, a strong heart, and healthy lungs and sends you away feeling good about your physical health, although you still have some unexplained internal pain.

You decide to get a second opinion and this doctor confirms that you have excellent hearing, a strong heart, and healthy lungs, but you have pancreatic cancer and only six months to live. Which doctor truly cared about you? The one who told you only the "good news" or the one who told you the truth?

We need to be committed to telling the truth regardless of the awkwardness of doing so.

Preach it, Pastor.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

If Oneness Pentecostals hadn't redefined what "born again" means and put words into the mouth of Jesus that He never spoke to Nicodemus, then one could honestly testify with those who first experienced the baptism of the Holy Ghost in the early 1900's, "I thank God that He saved me and filled me with the Holy Ghost."

A little Greek would do you well in understanding what Jesus was really preluding to during His recorded conversation with Nicodemus. Oneness Pentecostals didn't redefine anything that hadn't already been well defined from the apostles on throughout history. If you want to blame the doctrine on someone you'll have to go back much further than the 1900's.

If anyone put words in Jesus' mouth it was the interpreters. The Greek is rather plain and simple. Man's pride and lack of precision is not.