Islam: A Religion of Lies...

[Esaias]

Walks-in-Islam, may I ask what branch of Islam you identify as? Sunni, Shia, Sufi, ...?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Jito463

I condemn any application of it that results in abuse. Where is your confusion on this matter? Or are you simply obfuscating in order to make your position seem better? Are you trying to make yourself feel better, by attempting to make us seem as bad as your religion?

Attempting what? Who cares what you condemn. What's your confusion on that matter? It is hypocritical to condone lashing kids then criticize lashing in Saudi Arabia.

You do not condemn lashing kids, you just state that you reserve the right to determine what is justified and what is abuse as if you have some "special qualification" to do so. You need to feel "special" on the internet? Try a different tactic. That one is not working out.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Walks-in-Islam, may I ask what branch of Islam you identify as? Sunni, Shia, Sufi, ...?

We are Sunni.

The Dijjal (antichrist) will for certain be a shia...from Persia....LOL....NOT the pope and NOT the USSR and NOT the EU and NOT a huge secret underground computer in Belgium.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Hey Walks, how many muslims do you know who strike their wives?

Sura 4:34 Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

I do not see or hear of any wives that get hit but I have heard about a lot of physical and sexual abuse of household staff (such as maids and nannies). That needs to get stopped. I believe there is a guy locked up in colorado for pulling that in the US. My experience is that more apostolics whale their kids than Muslims strike their wives.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Dalton

Not at all good sir, I tend to forget that it's hard to interpret tone on the internet and I can come across as stern maybe or something along those lines when its more so just passion about the subject haha. Forgive me, I did not mean to offend you nor was I accusing you of anything, just delving further into what you were talking about when it comes to celebrities and the craziness around the whole subject.

Not a problem. I apologize for misunderstanding your post. You are right, sometimes it is hard to interpret tone on the internet.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Jito463

I condemn any application of it that results in abuse. Where is your confusion on this matter? Or are you simply obfuscating in order to make your position seem better? Are you trying to make yourself feel better, by attempting to make us seem as bad as your religion?

You're WAY worse dude. Let's get started. Ima "learn you" not to get on a thread bashing someone else's beliefs.

The Williamses’ lifestyle of devout, fundamentalist Christianity would become part of the unfolding trial. Isolated on a 5.6-acre lot set back from the road within a gated community, the Williamses prohibited most TV and Internet access, homeschooled their children, and, according to a report by their adoption agency, only socialized with one or two families beyond their own relatives. According to family acquaintances who later spoke to the police, the Williamses had grown increasingly fundamentalist over the years. Larry had taken to giving sermons in the backyard. Carri, who’d married at 19, went from wearing pants to just skirts or dresses, and didn’t believe that women should wear swimsuits or vote.

As investigators searched the house—so orderly it didn’t look like eight children lived there, wrote Detective Theresa Luvera in her warrant affidavit—they found a fundamentalist Christian child-rearing book called To Train Up A Child, written by Michael and Debi Pearl, which advises raising children to obey without question by starting to spank them when they're just a few months old. The book has been implicated in the beating deaths of two other adoptees—an American boy in North Carolina and a Liberian girl in California; the prosecuting attorney in the latter case, Michael Ramsey, called it “truly an evil book.”

My comment: I've seen that book in a home or two over the years.

Around the same time the Williamses were building their family, in the mid- and late 2000s, homeschooling conservative Christian parents of large families had begun adopting in significant numbers across the country, seeing adoption as a form of rescue that demonstrated their faith. Laurie Ann Hinman, a homeschooling Christian adoptive mother of eight who had attended a women’s Bible study with Carri, believes Carri was inspired to adopt by a fundamentalist women’s ministry, Above Rubies, which ran women’s retreats they’d both attended and which had sparked an earlier surge of evangelical adoptions from Liberia (many of which also failed).

In 2008 the Williamses decided to adopt. They looked to a nearby agency, Adoption Advocates International, a secular organization that was started by Merrily Ripley, a mother of 20, 17 of whom were adopted. AAI alerted them to a deaf Ethiopian child in need of a family. It seemed like a good match on paper. Before getting married, Carri had studied American Sign Language, with plans of becoming a sign language interpreter. She’d become a mother to seven instead, and wanted more children after pregnancy complications had left her unable to bear more herself. Carri and Larry completed a home study with AAI, apparently omitting information about the family’s disciplinary beliefs on a pre-adoption form admitted as court evidence. (Gay Knutson, director of social services for AAI, wouldn’t comment specifically on the Williams case, but says prospective adoptive families who spank would not be not allowed to adopt from AAI—though some families have lied about their parenting practices to the agency.)

My comment: The right to beat the daylights out of kids is worth lying for?

On the night of May 11, 2011, sometime around midnight, 13-year-old Hana Williams fell face-forward in her parents’ backyard. Adopted from Ethiopia three years before, Hana was naked and severely underweight. Her head had recently been shaved, and her body bore the scars of repeated beatings with a plastic plumbing hose. Inside the house, her adoptive mother, 42-year-old Carri Williams, and a number of Hana’s eight siblings had been peering out the window for the past few hours, watching as Hana staggered and thrashed around, removed her clothing in what is known as hypothermic paradoxical undressing and fell repeatedly, hitting her head. According to Hana’s brother Immanuel, a deaf 10-year-old also adopted from Ethiopia, the family appeared to be laughing at her.

When one of Carri’s biological daughters reported that Hana was lying facedown, Carri came outside. Upset by Hana’s immodest nakedness, Carri fetched a bedsheet and covered her before asking two teenage sons to carry her in. She called her husband, Larry, who was on his way home from a late shift at Boeing, then finally dialed 911, telling the operator, “I think my daughter just killed herself. … She’s really rebellious.”

From court testimony, pretrial motions, and a detective’s affidavit, here is what we know about what led up to that night: Hana had been outside since the midafternoon, wearing cutoff sweatpants and a short-sleeved shirt in the rainy, mid-40s drizzle of spring in Sedro-Woolley, Wash.—a small town just 40 miles south of the Canadian border. Carri had originally sent Hana outside that day as a punishment, ordering her to do jumping jacks to stay warm. She walked Hana to an outhouse reserved for her use and watched her fall several times, but went back inside to avoid seeing what she thought was attention-seeking behavior. As the hours wore on, Hana refused to come back in when Carri called. Carri put out dry clothes and sent two of her biological sons to hit Hana on her bottom with a plastic switch for disobeying. But Hana had begun to remove her clothing, and Carri, who believed in strict modesty, called the boys back in.

As the operator walked her through mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, an even-voiced Carri explained that Hana’s mouth was full of mud, her eyes dilated, “like she’s in a dark room.” Her voice grew annoyed as she described Hana’s nudity, and how she’d been “passive-aggressive,” causing “so much stress!”

Hana was pronounced dead at the hospital, the cause hypothermia compounded by malnutrition and gastritis. The following day, when Child Protective Services tried to check on the other children, Larry Williams refused to let them in. When police followed up, a deputy noted that the family acted as though Hana’s death was “an everyday occurrence.” Twelve days later, detectives and CPS conducted interviews with the children, but their answers seemed rote and rehearsed, all repeating that Hana was rebellious and refused to mind Carri; one child said he thought Hana was possessed by demons. According to investigators, Immanuel said that “people like [Hana] got spankings for lying and go into the fires of hell,” just before Larry abruptly ended the interview.

There are about 150 more to go. I still don't lock my doors and I firmly stand by my words that Saudi Arabia is safer than an apostolic home.

Kid I mentioned earlier? He attempted suicide twice. Solution was to try to put him in some boy's ranch over in Mississippi. He left home instead. Problem solved right? You won't sugarcoat your beliefs to me - boy. I know what you do behind closed doors.

[Jito463]

WII, when I responded to your post, it was to correct your misunderstanding that Pentecostals believe in abuse. Your response was to insult me, effectively accusing me of condoning abuse because I believe in corporal punishment. You have no desire to learn what I or others among us believe, instead you only desire to brand us all with a broad brush.

Admittedly, I could have handled it better in my last reply, but I was getting quite tired of dealing with your accusations. And since you seem intent on continuing down this path, I've put you on ignore. I've no desire to get into a drawn out argument when all you seem to care about is attempting to bash me over the head with your friends story.

I'm sorry your friend had to go through that, and I pray that he didn't ultimately hold God responsible for the actions of his parents; but to say I condone it because I believe in spanking is intellectually dishonest at best, and outright deceitful at worst. If you can't be bothered to understand the difference, I see no point in continuing this conversation.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Jito463

WII, when I responded to your post, it was to correct your misunderstanding that Pentecostals believe in abuse. Your response was to insult me, effectively accusing me of condoning abuse because I believe in corporal punishment. You have no desire to learn what I or others among us believe, instead you only desire to brand us all with a broad brush.

Admittedly, I could have handled it better in my last reply, but I was getting quite tired of dealing with your accusations. And since you seem intent on continuing down this path, I've put you on ignore. I've no desire to get into a drawn out argument when all you seem to care about is attempting to bash me over the head with your friends story.

I'm sorry your friend had to go through that, and I pray that he didn't ultimately hold God responsible for the actions of his parents; but to say I condone it because I believe in spanking is intellectually dishonest at best, and outright deceitful at worst. If you can't be bothered to understand the difference, I see no point in continuing this conversation.

You will not correct what I know and see. Clean your own house and dont join threads to bash others until it's clean.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You will not correct what I know and see. Clean your own house and dont join threads to bash others until it's clean.

You pick a random example and broadbrush that for ALL of Christianity, i.e. Pentecost?

I lived in a pastor's home where the children threw my expensive watch in dishwater, poured Clorox on my laundry, and I could go on. I could tell you a lot more stories. Did I become bitter and blame God for people's actions? None of these things are God's fault.

You know what isn't random and what isn't a broadbrush? Saudi Arabia with a Muslim population of 97.1% and the largest supporter of Sharia Law. Clean up your own house before joining a forum to bash others.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Just because we get very pointed here, doesn't mean we don't have compassion. I do not believe there is anyone posting here who does not pray for others and who do not have compassion for the world we live in.

Interesting.