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  #581  
Old 08-10-2008, 11:02 PM
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
What makes you think I'm angry? Was I typing too loudly? LOL

Only one thing has made me upset so far. And bro, you've not upset me. I've actually enjoyed talking to you.
I am glad. Don't take what's said personally. I enjoy the talk as well....
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  #582  
Old 08-10-2008, 11:11 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Here's something interesting....
2 Samuel 12:7-9
7And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
Notice something in Nathan's rebuke. God says that He gave David the multiple wives he received from the house of Saul. Notice also that God states that if it would not have been enough, God would have given him more. David isn't condemned by God for having multiple wives. He's condemned by God for taking a woman who was wife to another man and then having that man, Uriah, killed.

(Side Note: David doesn't violate the law of Deuteronomy 17:17 because these women were all Israelite. The concern of Deuteronomy 17:17 was a king multiplying foreign wives because they might turn his heart away from serving Jehovah.)

Clearly polygamy isn't a sin.

Now, is monogamy superior? I think so. I think it allows for more stability and happiness. But I see it sociologically. In an ancient agrarian culture surrounded by desert and enemies polygamy would most likely be best. It would grow families, increase wealth, and provide protection for women. But in our Western culture it's not necessary. It would create more issues than it would resolve. Therefore I believe that in modern America monogamy is superior to polygamy.
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  #583  
Old 08-10-2008, 11:40 PM
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Here's something interesting....
2 Samuel 12:7-9
7And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
Notice something in Nathan's rebuke. God says that He gave David the multiple wives he received from the house of Saul. Notice also that God states that if it would not have been enough, God would have given him more. David isn't condemned by God for having multiple wives. He's condemned by God for taking a woman who was wife to another man and then having that man, Uriah, killed.

(Side Note: David doesn't violate the law of Deuteronomy 17:17 because these women were all Israelite. The concern of Deuteronomy 17:17 was a king multiplying foreign wives because they might turn his heart away from serving Jehovah.)

Clearly polygamy isn't a sin.

Now, is monogamy superior? I think so. I think it allows for more stability and happiness. But I see it sociologically. In an ancient agrarian culture surrounded by desert and enemies polygamy would most likely be best. It would grow families, increase wealth, and provide protection for women. But in our Western culture it's not necessary. It would create more issues than it would resolve. Therefore I believe that in modern America monogamy is superior to polygamy
.

Anyway you slice it this take is troubling. It means cheating on your wife is NOT sin, as long as the woman is not married to someone else.
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  #584  
Old 08-11-2008, 12:01 AM
joshua33
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Aquila, just wanted to thank you for keeping this debate civil and sticking to plain scripture.

From reading both sides, there is not one verse that plainly condemns Polygamy. The laws were very specific about so many scenarios.. how in the world can someone call it a sin when it is not among the many God given laws? You think they just forgot to put it in?

Can anyone provide any scripture condemning polygamy as a sin? I see multiple instances where it is practiced and God acknowledges the practice, yet no condemnation.

Also, I know adultery in the bible means 'woman that breaketh wedlock' (I looked up the biblical/Hebrew definition). So how is it 'cheating' if a man is in wedlock with more than one woman as Abraham and so many were? Again why wasn't this fairly common practice condemned if it is sin?
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  #585  
Old 08-11-2008, 05:11 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

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Anyway you slice it this take is troubling. It means cheating on your wife is NOT sin, as long as the woman is not married to someone else.
That is troubling isn't it. From my studies it appears that in ancient Israel the marriage contract is primarily a social contract. The women involved were considered to belong to the men they were married to. "Adultery" wasn't so much the sex act, it was a breach in contract. If a man took another man's wife, it was adultery. The first man sinned against the second man by taking what was that man's alone. It was a patriarchal society and most of the laws were geared toward protecting the rights and property of the men involved. It also provided women protection and provision in a brutal agrarian world. That being said, when it comes to polygamy, if a husband desired more than one wife, nothing was wrong as long as these women were in covenant with him. And nothing was wrong with entering covenant with additional women if the first wife was agreeable.

It seems like Paul lifts marriage higher by saying that spouse's bodies belong to one another. But still this could be interpreted as being rather permissive given the couple.
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  #586  
Old 08-11-2008, 05:45 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

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Originally Posted by joshua33 View Post
Aquila, just wanted to thank you for keeping this debate civil and sticking to plain scripture.

From reading both sides, there is not one verse that plainly condemns Polygamy. The laws were very specific about so many scenarios.. how in the world can someone call it a sin when it is not among the many God given laws? You think they just forgot to put it in?

Can anyone provide any scripture condemning polygamy as a sin? I see multiple instances where it is practiced and God acknowledges the practice, yet no condemnation.

Also, I know adultery in the bible means 'woman that breaketh wedlock' (I looked up the biblical/Hebrew definition). So how is it 'cheating' if a man is in wedlock with more than one woman as Abraham and so many were? Again why wasn't this fairly common practice condemned if it is sin?
I think people are so focused on what happens in the bedroom they don't see how the institution of polygamy strengthened the social fabric of ancient Israel. Remember, it was a culture very much unlike our own. I don't see a need for polygamy in most Western countries, but like I said, if something happened that brought civilization to it's knees....I can see it becoming the norm again for the sake of survival.
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  #587  
Old 08-11-2008, 07:27 AM
Pastor DTSalaz Pastor DTSalaz is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Judgment had already been pronounced on the earth due to mans erroneous ways. God destroyed the earth. They took them wives (multiple) of all which they chose. This violated Gods original intent. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. He had only one wife and children from that one wife. God Spirit began to strive with man. Why? God saw the wickedness of man.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

God has mercy on us knowing that the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. It is not because it is his desire for us to have multiple marriages, his mercy covers our iniquities. His grace showers us with blessings if we are by faith trying to do our personal best in spite of our many flaws. This does not however eliminate if we do wrong we will not pay the consequence for our wrongdoing on earth. Seed time and harvest time. Our eternal destiny is based on faith in doing what we know is to be the will of God. God deals with our sin based on his covenant with Adam of a coming savior/redeemer. If we keep his type and shadow of offering an animal sacrifice to take the place of our sin He then deals with the eternal consequence of sin. This does not eliminate the immediate consequence of sin and the pain, suffering it will bring to us when the harvest comes. What happened between Sarah and Hagar, and her seed and Hagar's?

He was tolerating sin and did not immediately condemn it. Before the law of Moses was established we see God had already established LAWS. We see in the action of the Patriarchs and know that God had given them laws regarding His will. This is called Oral Tradition which later began to be written down as the Mishnah and later included the rabbinic discussions with it known as the Talmud. Even some details of this are evident in the New Testament as we find further elaboration on what was written in the Tanakh or Hebrew Word of God that was not originally in there. The Midrash also included them which is a Hebrew Commentary on the scriptures.

God began to deal with SIN orally as each sin became evident. The second (? pride 1st, anger, then murder)sin anger is dealt with by Jesus as well in Matthew 5. Not only the act of murder but what leads up to committing the actual sin. There was no written law against Adultery but Joseph knew what it was. Everyone knew they had to build an altar. Oral Law. Abraham paid tithes. The reason God did not condemn polygamy immediately was that he was striving with man. This did not make it OK God knows the progression of sin. It begins with a thought an emotion/feeling before it becomes an action.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Will continue in a moment

Blessings

Pastor Salaz
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  #588  
Old 08-11-2008, 08:07 AM
Pastor DTSalaz Pastor DTSalaz is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Original intent once again is spelled out by Jesus. Not because this is Gods design but because of the hardness of our heart to hear and do the will of God.

Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

What was happening in the days of Noah/Noe?

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Did God tolerate sin? Yes he did! Who did Jesus go and preach to? Those that were disobedient as we see above. Disobedient in marriage. They didn't believe God, no faith, did their own will and condemned themselves. Hard hearts. The same thing that saves some condemns others. Doing Gods will and intention for us to have a blessed and prosperous life. Otherwise it brings hardships and condemnation. The ark and baptism symbols of faith and obedience. If we believe, we do what God says, if we don't we show unbelief or lack of faith.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


The Word specifically mentions this disobedience as one of the reasons why God brought judgment. It mentions as in the days of Noah so shall it be when God brings judgment again. Not by flood this time though.


Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Just because they were not born out of Gods original intent did not mean they wouldn't become men of Renown and mighty. They still were sinful and judgment came. If they had faith in God and did righteousness by trying to fulfill Gods Laws to the best of their ability God did not condemn them to hell as a sinner but their faith was counted unto them as righteousness. Hebrews 11. Just as we do not fulfill every detail of the moral law yet our faith is counted to us for righteousness. The ceremonial law is fulfilled in Jesus and we no longer have to deal with the types and shadows but we still have to fulfill the moral law to please God not to be saved. How many men of renown do we have now that are men of God but still do unrighteous deeds. I count myself in on that one. Yet my overall testimony is clearly seen because I have faith in God.

Moral Law continues, ceremonial ceases with resurrection, one day all will be fulfilled. Everyone is saved by faith both old and new testament. No one was ever saved by trying to keep the law it only showed them how they have failed and pointed for the need of a savior.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Can you imagine what God had to deal with. Not only the actual commiting of sin but every imagination of the thought? Man had evil thoughts and thought evil thoughts (imaginations) about thoughts.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

When mercy has reached it limit Judgment follows. When man no longer reaches out to Gods outstretched hand we see in Proverbs 1 what happens.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Gen 6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

All flesh included Noah but Noah found Grace by doing in faith what he knew to please God.

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Multiple wives and fathers are not able to properly be a spiritual guide to them. He cannot spread himself so thin with jealousies, bickering, fighting, envies, coveting attention, etc.. It is hard enough to keep one wifes family in order much more multiple wives.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The prophets were the ones who God spoke to in order to deliver his message. Which includes Adam Through Moses up until Samuel where prophets become the ones who God primarily speaks through after this for even the priests left Gods ways and were not able to hear God and deliver his message.

The reason that God is still tolerating sin is because of his mercy not because he is always pleased with our action. He will not condemn us if we are trying to do his will though we fail miserably. This was the intent of the law, to guide us into his moral nature and show us that we cannot be saved by that (it condemns us), but also to give us ceremonial laws that hinted of his mercy. Otherwise can you imagine the endless list of laws that God would have to create. Just read what he gave and tries to deal with all our wickedness. These would be of no avail for they cannot save us but condemn us. God had to deal with the sin that was being committed already especially in marriage and relationships.

God though Jesus' words gives us his original intent. The law had to deal with our wayward actions and reconcile our relationships without destroying the lives of those already involved in our misguided judgments. Such as Sarah and Abraham. The deed was already done Abraham fathered a child out of Gods original intent. God still had mercy on Hagar and honored Abraham's seed, but this seed was always going to be against every man. Even though God made a great nation out of him and from him came twelve princes. This came through Abraham hearkening to the voice of Sarah. Sound familiar?

Gen 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

So much more. I will address some individual posts as I go back and read through some of them. I may have to come back and go more into detail om this as it is picked apart.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


Blessings
Pastor D.T. Salaz
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  #589  
Old 08-11-2008, 08:12 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

ORAL LAW or Rabbinical teaching NEVER was God's Word. You my friend have called something that is not God's Word his Word! Any basic teaching on Hebrew elements of scriptures and traditions would teach you that these two are not the same and the Law of Moses is one thing and the others are added ON TOP of that. Jesus ripped them negating God's laws.
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  #590  
Old 08-11-2008, 08:38 AM
Pastor DTSalaz Pastor DTSalaz is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

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ORAL LAW or Rabbinical teaching NEVER was God's Word. You my friend have called something that is not God's Word his Word! Any basic teaching on Hebrew elements of scriptures and traditions would teach you that these two are not the same and the Law of Moses is one thing and the others are added ON TOP of that. Jesus ripped them negating God's laws.
What law was given to the patriarchs? A written law?

Much of what is in the oral law is true though it is not God inspired word.

Same goes for the Apocrypha. Though it is not the inspired word of God many truths are expounded there. We don't accept them because during that time there was no word from God through a prophet as such called the silent years. Ever heard of the Maccabees?

Where do we get the culture and customs from? Many writings that are historical records. We study these though they are not the word of God. Do you have Josephus or Eusebius the father of church history on your book shelve. These are a good study though you should not equate them to the Word of God.

Tell me where the additional detail comes from that is added to the New Testament that not found in the Old. You probably have never studied that.
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