Polygamy in the Bible

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Blah, blah, blah. You still still didn't even address the scenario given. Would you force this man to divorce his second wife, subjugating her and her children to a life of abuse, or allow him to keep her, teaching him that polygamy isn't our custom and that it stops with him?

Marriage is a covenant. It stands, even if it happened before salvation. Else....we'd have to force couples to re-marry after getting saved!

I did....

Originally Posted by TK Burk

This is why Jesus said we must count the cost.... Evidently he did and it was too high.

Tough choices had to be made by those in the First Century also. If you were a Jew, you forfeited everything to become a disciple of Jesus Christ. Even today, Muslim converts often convert knowing it may cost them horrendous persecution or even their lives. But regardless of the cost, if it's right, it's right! (See Mark 8:34-38; 1Peter 4:13-16)

You just can't handle the fact that these scriptures do not agree with your philosophy.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amen. That's why I don't understand why so many think conversion automatically makes adulterous marriages "sanctified". Yet...they would argue that polygamous marriages (which aren't explicitly condemned in the NT) must be dissolved. For the sake of consistency, if they're going to break up a polygamous marriage... they should also refuse to acknowledge adulterous marriages in which a partner was previously married and put away on grounds other than fornication.

Okay, let me get this straight…

You blast me for saying a polygamous man should leave his second wife and live only with his first wife to be saved…. Then you say if a man divorced BEFORE being saved he must divorce his second wife and return to his first wife to be saved…. And you wonder why your posts are not being answered??

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Okay, let me get this straight…

You blast me for saying a polygamous man should leave his second wife and live only with his first wife to be saved…. Then you say if a man divorced BEFORE being saved he must divorce his second wife and return to his first wife to be saved…. And you wonder why your posts are not being answered??

Aquila your mother should bust you upside the head with her fuzzy slipper because of your wasting time on her computer.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It's all about math and it's you and your buds who can't count.
First Adam has one rib removed and is made one wife. It sets a Biblical precedent for marriage. Jesus has ONE wife for life, and that's His Bride, finishing the perfect picture of Biblical realtionship. The elders of the church are to reflect this by only having ONE WIFE.

They were also naked...are you a nudist? lol

Gen 17:15-16

"And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy WIFE (SINGULAR), thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless HER (SINGULAR), and give thee a son also of HER (SINGULAR): yea, I will bless HER (SINGULAR), and SHE (SINGULAR) shall be a MOTHER (SINGULAR) of nations; kings of people shall be of HER (SINGULAR)."

Amazingly enough, God only acknowledges Sarah as Abraham's wife. Hagar is considered by God to be Sarah and Abraham's idea. Kind of a short cut to help God along, or should I say forcing God's hand.

Gen 16:2-5

"And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai Abram's WIFE (SINGULAR) took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to HER (SINGULAR) husband Abram to be his WIFE (SARAH AND ABRAHAM'S IDEA). And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. And Sarai said unto Abram, MY WRONG BE UPON THEE: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: THE LORD JUDGE BETWEEN ME AND THEE."

The Lord judge between me and thee? Well, well, well, here we have Abraham's wife admitting that she was wrong, and that Abraham was to blame for allowing Sarah to do such a thing. God's plan was to use Abraham's wife of his youth, not some maid. The promise was only made to ONE WOMAN.

Only the one wife was legit in the eyes of God. The promise of Abraham goes through Abraham's wife of his youth.

Actually you're mistaken. First, God never condemns Abraham for polygamy, God simply informs Abraham that Ishmael wasn't going to be the promised seed because God promised that seed through Sarah.

Also, Hagar is regarded as a legit wife in God's eyes. God blesses her and Ishmael, thereby ensuring that the receives an inheritance and a blessing.... it was Sarah who was being heartless insisting that a woman her her child be cast into the desert when the whole thing was her idea.

"20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year." - Genesis 17:19-21

Again here we have individuals using their own human will to get the job done.

Jacob was tricked into marrying Leah (not Jacob's intent,) and therefore he works seven more years to marry his original choice. Leah knows that Jacob didn't even like her, and since by the tradition of Jacob's people he was supposed to marry the first born, God had respect to Leah. Because Leah is the legal wife (first born daughter), Jacob knew the drill, but wanted to bypass the rules to marry the younger daughter. The father of Leah pulls the switch on Jacob.

Still you have the original wife being the first Leah, it's Jacob who agrees with Laban to gain the second choice. God honors the first and original wife by giving her the most children. Therefore showing us the blessing was upon Leah, the first and legal choice, the first born daughter.

I think you miss the point of the story...Jacob and Rachel were the victim's of Laban's deception. The marriage was originally agreed to be between Jacob and Rachel. Laban deceived Jacob by inserting Leah into the mix. Rachel was the woman Jacob loved and the woman he had worked seven years for.

Genesis 29:25
25And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?

You're siding with Laban, the deceiver, illustrates you don't know a thing about the complexity of this story. God only gave so many children to Leah because she was hated (Genesis 29:31), not because of him viewing her as the legitimate wife.

Rachel was considered the primary wife because Jacob married Leah without his knowledge....

Rabbi Eleazar further remarked: "Since Jacob had to find his wife by the well, why did he not meet there Leah, who was to be the mother of so many tribes? The answer is that it was not the will of God that Leah should be espoused to Jacob openly, and in fact he married her without his knowledge, as it is written: And it came to pass in the morning that, behold, it was Leah. It was also in order to rivet his eye and heart on the beauty of Rachel, so that he should establish his principal abode with her." (Zohar, Bereishit, Section 1, Page 153a)

God's word even places her in a position of being preeminent by naming her first....

Genesis 31:14
14And Rachel and Leah answered and said unto him, Is there yet any portion or inheritance for us in our father's house?

Those unfamiliar with ancient Middle Eastern customs will not see how this verse is so significant, but it is VERY telling.

So then, back to the story.... Jacob had to work seven more years to earn the hand of Rachel, the woman he loved. And then to add insult to injury....Leah was able to bare Jacob children while Rachel wasn't because she was hated (Genesis 29:31). All of this: her father's deception, being unable to bare children, made Rachel bitter against her father and her sister and left her heart broken. She loved Jacob...and Jacob loved Rachel. Lastly who did Rachel give birth to? Joseph was one son...and God blessed him to rule over his brethren.

Show me where Zipporah was still alive while Moses was married to Zipporah?

Show me where it states she's dead.

David was instructed by the Torah not to do the above, and most of those marriages were done for political reasons as was the case in ancient society.

Deu 17:17

"NEITHER SHALL HE MULTIPLY WIVES TO HIMSELF, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold."

Those who are ignorant as to Eastern customs among kings fail to see what this is obviously addressing. Kings would multiply wives as part of treaties with foreign nations. These wives were pagan and stood a chance of turning the heart of the king away into idolatry (we see this happen to Solomon). What is being condemned her isn't polygamy....it's multiplying foreign wives.

Are you for real? So you claim the word "TAKE" means to marry?

When God commanded that they "take" the virgins they were to marry them per the directions given in the Law....

Deuteronomy 21:10-13
10When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
11And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
12Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

TO BE CONTINUED:

[Aquila]

CONTINUED:

Also, something else is of interest in this passage....

Deuteronomy 21:15-17
15If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

Here God's law codifies rights of inheritance in a polygamous marriage. God himself states that it is possible to be legitimately married to two women by using the term "two wives". If it were only possible to have one wife...maybe you should correct God...because obviously you think you know more about this than he does.

Elder Burk, now Mr. Aquila has added pedophila and bestiality to his polygamy wierdness. Whatever, Aquila your last name wouldn't happen to be Jeffs would it?

I never said any such thing and I find that HIGHLY insulting.

God commanded it? Where did you see that in the Bible?

It's a known fact that the Law commands a man to take his brother's wife and sire children in his brother's name. This was to be done even if he were already married.

Yes, you not only wrest the scripture but you make up this doctrine as you go along. I think your mother should roll up a newspaper and walk into your bedroom while you're posting and bust you across the nose.

You continue to get insulting and going personal. My mother died last year just two days before my son's first birthday. You need to stop with the personal attacks and insults and simply DISCUSS the subject with us like a man of God.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Why so angry?? I DID answer the points. If you will reread my post, you'll see I was answering Dr. Vaughn.

What makes you think I'm angry? Was I typing too loudly? LOL

Only one thing has made me upset so far. And bro, you've not upset me. I've actually enjoyed talking to you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Okay, let me get this straight…

You blast me for saying a polygamous man should leave his second wife and live only with his first wife to be saved…. Then you say if a man divorced BEFORE being saved he must divorce his second wife and return to his first wife to be saved…. And you wonder why your posts are not being answered??

No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm only pointing out that you offer grace for men in what are explicitly condemned as adulterous marriages but condemn a family and risk subjecting women and their children to abuse, though polygamy is never condemned. I would extend that grace to men and women in polygamous marriages.

I wouldn't allow the polygamy to continue. It would end with that generation. My point is I would have the second wife and her children's welfare in mind while you're just following what you "think" the Bible says.

One rule I hold....I refuse to hurt a person over an "interpretation" of Scripture. If an issue is debatable, I lean toward mercy.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Aquila your mother should bust you upside the head with her fuzzy slipper because of your wasting time on her computer.

She can't. She's dead.

Died July 7, 2007 of a massive heart attack at 54 tears old...just two days before my son's first birthday.

Now....please get out of the mud and personal insults and let's try to discuss this like adults.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Multiple wives would mean multiple maxed out credit cards.

So true! lol

[Aquila]

God doesn't "tolerate sin". If polygamy was a sin why didn't God express it at all against Abraham? Why didn't God condemn Jacob, Moses, and David. In fact, when Moses is spoken against because he took a second wife who was Ethiopian...God DEFENDS Moses. Not only that but the Bible says that Gideon had many wives who bore him 70 sons....yet God doesn't condemn or sanction him once over it. In fact, listen to how the elders of Israel bless Ruth when she marries Boaz.....


"11And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:" - Ruth 4:11

This blessing implies that Jacob's polygamy was a blessing, not a sin, not a curse, not an "allowance". You'd condemn Jacob to Hell for committing Adultery. God's Word in no way insinuates such a thing. God's word implies that Jacob's polygamous marriages were a blessing.

Elkanah has two wives and yet he's described as faithful in his worship of the Lord (I Samuel 1:3). His worship is accepted and commended. God could have easily said, "Yet in having two wives, God was not entirely pleased with Elkanah." But Elkanah is regarded as a faithful man who is commendable before God. You'd say Elkanah was in adultery. Since he never repented of this "adultery" (if it is indeed adultery) Elkanah is burning in a devil's Hell today.

David marries Michal, then Abigail and Ahinoam. David then takes Maachah, Haggith, Abital, and Eglah. David then takes more wives and concubines (2 Samuel 5:13). Then David commits adultery with Bathsheba. Now...no where in all the marriages prior to David meeting Bathsheba does the Bible say that David "did evil in the sight of the Lord". It wasn't until Bathsheba that David is confronted for the sin of adultery. This obviously illustrates that none of the unions prior to Bathsheba can be classified as adulterous or sinful. It was David's taking of a wife that didn't belong to him that provoked God to anger. Up until then God was blessing David.

Now...here's a BIGGIE. Not only does God not speak against David's many wives...God says that HE GAVE DAVID THESE WIVES (2 Samuel 12:8). Not only that, this text has God telling David that if that had not been enough....God would have given him MORE! Certainly God isn't "tolerating sin"....because if he is...he's also the author of it.

Psalm 26:1-12, indicates that during this time David walked in "integrity...truth...and hates wickedness". If David were in sin with these polygamous marriages....this would not be true. David goes on to say, "I restrain my feet from every evil way, that I may keep your word" (Psalms 119:101). Obviously when David married his wives and spent time with them, it wasn't sinful. The only sin David is condemned for is his adultery with Uriah's wife and his having Uriah murdered. In Psalm 119:128, David says, "I esteem right all thy precepts concerning everything, I hate every false way". David obviously didn't hate polygamy. And God certainly didn't hate it seeing that David's wives were given to him by God.

My point is that God isn't "tolerating sin", God is the very one who has given men multiple wives, namely David. And God has also NEVER spoken against these men.

Polygmay is not a sin.

However, when addressing marriage Paul does emphasize that many of this directions were good "for their present distress". Polygamy was illegal under the Roman Empire...so Paul doesn't directly speak of it or address it. It would be unthinkable to Paul for a good Christian citizen of Rome to illegally marry more than one wife. But Paul doesn't condemn polygamy as sin...if he did...he'd be condemning the majority of the men of God in the OT and even God himself for giving wives.

Now, I think this present distress (the church sojourning in a hostile world and under secular and ungodly governments) continues today and therefore monogamous marriage is still best in the context of our place in history and dispensations. However, during the Millennium, it's possible that we will see a reassurance of polygamy as Israel receives every covenantal promise of God contained in the Law and the Prophets. Of course...I could be wrong. However, those who partake in the "resurrection" will be like the angels in Heaven neither marrying or giving in marriage.