Tithing…Is it a command?

[good samaritan]

JB I was wandering if you teach any application when it comes to giving or do you teach on giving at all?

We have a lot of people on this forum who seem to think that to have overhead is wrong and we should do things from house to house.

JB do you pastor? and if you do, would you say a large percentage of your home church is supported by tithers?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Again are you sure every single doctrine you have is completely and totally true? Are you sure you have no errors whatsoever in your theology?

When I said "Jesus did", I was referring to Jesus calling the pharisees liars.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

JB I was wandering if you teach any application when it comes to giving or do you teach on giving at all?


We have a lot of people on this forum who seem to think that to have overhead is wrong and we should do things from house to house.

JB do you pastor? and if you do, would you say a large percentage of your home church is supported by tithers?

Yes I pastor. No I don't teach on giving in the formal sense. That's not to say I won't, I have taught it in passing when I taught through Proverbs. Right now I am preaching most Sundays through the book of Mark.

I have only been pastor here for about 15 months and the church has had a lot of challenges. (Before I began preaching here the church endured a split over Calvinism). We really are almost starting from the ground up. So there's a lot I want to teach in time but haven't yet. I do intend to teach on giving eventually but I'm in no hurry to get to that particular subject. However my views on tithing have been the same for the last several years both as an asst pastor (in 2 other congregations) and now as a pastor (in the current church). It has nothing to do with where one serves in the church the question is what do the scriptures teach.

The church is supported by freewill offerings. I don't collect the money out of the box or pay the bills so I'm not sure who gives what nor do I much care. I am comfortable leaving that between them and God, my desire is to bring them close to Christ. If I can do that giving will never be an issue whether to the church or to their neighbor in need. I know there was a brother coming who was faithfully tithing and I didn't discourage him. I don't tell people they can't tithe. I simply don't tell them they have to. We do not take up an offering during church service.

I don't think overhead is wrong. But our church building is paid off and me not taking a salary really keeps bills low. Our monthly bills are probably about $300-$500 per month. Church insurance has to be paid once a year.

The congregation is small but beginning to grow. Right now my focus is on rebuilding that church. Lots more to the story but I'd prefer to talk about it privately.

[Sean]

In case you guys missed this....It is a repost



This was the official beginning of tithing in Christianity, in the 8th century...
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/w...arlemagne.html


Charlemagne assumed a major responsibility for religious life in his realm. Religious reform became a prime focus of his program. He made royal government the directive force in religious affairs and gave a subordinate role in the service of the king to the clergy. Charlemagne made reluctant pagans, such as the Saxons, receive baptism and imposed a tax of 10 percent of all income, called a tithe, on all Christians to support religious life. In formulating his new religious program Charlemagne relied on guidance from the papacy, especially Pope Hadrian I (772-795). Charlemagne played a major role in enhancing the authority of the papacy in the West.





A different post to read...
THE CHURCH CONTINUED WITH THIS VOLUNTARY APPROACH TO GIVING AND TO THE SUPPORT OF THE CHURCH FOR OVER 300 YEARS.

In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor, Constantine, converted to Christianity. He is credited with bringing status to Christianity and with starting the first large church building program. (Note: he is also credited with instituting the first Sunday law in 321; his edict required the people to rest on the “venerable day of the sun.”) Constantine wanted the church to have impressive buildings that would honor his name and his contributions to the church. Consequently, the church groups moved out of homes and into finer buildings and began employing full-time ministers. Therefore, there was a need to support these buildings and these salaried bishops. The New Catholic Encyclopedia summarizes the situation:

“The early Christian church had no tithing system. The tithes of the Old Testament were regarded as abrogated” by Christ’s death. However, as the church’s material needs grew because of its vast building program and paying of bishops, it adopted the pre-cross, Ceremonial Law-method of support, tithing. Therefore, “the Council of Macon in 585, ordered the payment of tithes and threatened excommunication to those who refused to comply.”

From the sixth century forward, tithing was adopted by the Catholic Church and later accepted into many protestant churches from the 1500’s onward.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica notes: “Despite serious resistance, tithing became obligatory as Christianity spread across Europe….It was enjoined by ecclesiastical law from the sixth century….” In the 14th century, Pope Gregory VII, outlawed …lay ownership of tithes.” In other words, Pope Gregory VII, concluded that only paid clergy could receive and direct the use of tithe, not lay, unpaid, Christians. (Note: A similar position is taken by E. G. White when she states that the tithe is to be used for ministers, only. Testimonies, Vol. 9, 248-249. This position is contrary to Deut. 14, which teaches that tithe was, among other things, to be used for strangers (refugees), orphans, and widows.) The following statement is made by the Archdiocese of St. Louis: “TITHING IS ABSOLUTELY STILL NECESSARY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY. (See their: Office of Stewardship and Development statement on the www.)

In 765, the Carolingian King Pepin III (the Short) sent a letter to all bishops making the payment of tithe by each individual to his parish church a legal obligation. Also, everyone was forced to tithe 800 years after Christ when Charlemagne founded the Holy Roman Empire, blending church and state and making tithing a state law.



And folks...weve been it teaching ever since....guess what, we have NOT come completely out of the Catholic church and WE ARE STILL IN THE REFORMATION.

[good samaritan]

I'll keep you in my prayers and may God continue to bless the work you do. I enjoy the thread and I think it is important to discuss this subject. We only take up one offering a week and that is Sunday mornings. I have only been pastoring for about 14mo. and we are also in the process. I don't disagree with statements you have made regarding this issue. I just have seen how that every church I've ever been a part of where funded by tithers only and the freewill givers didn't amount to much. You may not believe me, but it doesn't offend me those who don't give. I really do want to see people grow in the Lord and wether you teach tithes or freewill giving I believe it is going to be the same bunch who are going to support the work. Giving is a matter of the heart however much you feel neccessary.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I'll keep you in my prayers and may God continue to bless the work you do. I enjoy the thread and I think it is important to discuss this subject. We only take up one offering a week and that is Sunday mornings. I have only been pastoring for about 14mo. and we are also in the process. I don't disagree with statements you have made regarding this issue. I just have seen how that every church I've ever been a part of where funded by tithers only and the freewill givers didn't amount to much. You may not believe me, but it doesn't offend me those who don't give. I really do want to see people grow in the Lord and wether you teach tithes or freewill giving I believe it is going to be the same bunch who are going to support the work. Giving is a matter of the heart however much you feel neccessary.

Brother, I like your spirit. I hope you are mightily used as you reach out to your community. You seem to have souls in the forefront of your ministry and the Lord desires that in us. Thank you for being open minded in this subject.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Yes I pastor. No I don't teach on giving in the formal sense. That's not to say I won't, I have taught it in passing when I taught through Proverbs. Right now I am preaching most Sundays through the book of Mark.

I have only been pastor here for about 15 months and the church has had a lot of challenges. (Before I began preaching here the church endured a split over Calvinism). We really are almost starting from the ground up. So there's a lot I want to teach in time but haven't yet. I do intend to teach on giving eventually but I'm in no hurry to get to that particular subject. However my views on tithing have been the same for the last several years both as an asst pastor (in 2 other congregations) and now as a pastor (in the current church). It has nothing to do with where one serves in the church the question is what do the scriptures teach.

The church is supported by freewill offerings. I don't collect the money out of the box or pay the bills so I'm not sure who gives what nor do I much care. I am comfortable leaving that between them and God, my desire is to bring them close to Christ. If I can do that giving will never be an issue whether to the church or to their neighbor in need. I know there was a brother coming who was faithfully tithing and I didn't discourage him. I don't tell people they can't tithe. I simply don't tell them they have to. We do not take up an offering during church service.

I don't think overhead is wrong. But our church building is paid off and me not taking a salary really keeps bills low. Our monthly bills are probably about $300-$500 per month. Church insurance has to be paid once a year.

The congregation is small but beginning to grow. Right now my focus is on rebuilding that church. Lots more to the story but I'd prefer to talk about it privately.

Jason, this post my brother is APOSTOLIC. I wish all could get your concept of offerings. That post you have here is exemplified of the ministry of Paul himself.....Acts 20:33...... I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Dont ever change my brother.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Do you love God enough to put Him first, even in your finances? Yes or no.

Putting God first in one's finances is not in question here. A man made doctrine that proclaims God requires one to give ten percent of gross monetary income to the local church is in question here.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by HRea

Ephesians 2:20
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

2 Timothy 3:16a
16a All scripture is given by inspiration of God...

As many as would like to deny the scriptures, there is a fundamental truth, we need both the old and new testaments. Don't be stupid and say that I'm saying we must follow "The Law", because I'm not. However, I'm am saying that there are consistencies between the two testaments that God Himself instituted and we need to be mindful of them.

Tithing, in and of itself, is a secondary matter. God never changed the purpose of why He commanded people to tithe. Both testaments clearly agree that His ministers (sons of Levi in the old testament, 5-fold ministry of the new testament) were to be provided for from those to whom they ministered. Numbers 18:21 (along with several other verses), and the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 9 and Galatians 6:6 agree together on this matter.

Jesus had no problem with tithing (Matthew 23:23), it was the incorrect emphasis, not the tithing itself, for which He condemned the scribes and Pharisees.

The condemnation of Malachi 3:10 is that there were no provisions (or a disregard for bringing provisions) for God's ministers. He considered this akin to robbing God Himself (Malachi 3:8).

Clearly, the Lord commanded (1 Corinthians 9:14) that His new testament ministers be provided for. This is consistent and taught to new testament churches (examples: 1 Corinthians 9 the entire chapter, Galatians 6:6, 1 Timothy 5:17)

1 Corinthians 9 uses very strong language to convey this principle. However, the only example that Paul has is the tithe of the old testament (v13). The Corinthians are Gentiles and Paul is bringing up tithing to Gentiles as though they understand what he is referring to (he knows what he taught them when he was present with them). In v14, he writes that the Lord brings forward AS A COMMAND that the gospel minister be provided for.

Would a man rob God? If you are not providing for those whom God has set in your church to minister to you, then, yes, you make yourself a thief.

Only those involved in agriculture whether small or great were required to tithe. Food items could only come from within the boundaries of Israel. Not everyone tithe.

Jesus in Matthew was addressing those who were under the law.

In Malachi 3 God is talking to the Priest.

We cannot take a God given command to Israel to tithe food items produced within its boundaries and call it money today.

I don't know anyone who doesn't believe in helping the ministry monetarily.

"In like manner" could only mean in general or food items could only be tithed.

The tither at some time was commanded to eat of their tithe. When does this happen today if "in like manner."

Also there is no command to build or have a building to bring a tithe of money to. Commonly referred to as a store house which would be a warehouse today.

There is just too many holes/gaps to make tithing money a command. Freewill giving is the Apostolic way.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by HRea

Ephesians 2:20
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

2 Timothy 3:16a
16a All scripture is given by inspiration of God...

As many as would like to deny the scriptures, there is a fundamental truth, we need both the old and new testaments. Don't be stupid and say that I'm saying we must follow "The Law", because I'm not. However, I'm am saying that there are consistencies between the two testaments that God Himself instituted and we need to be mindful of them.

Tithing, in and of itself, is a secondary matter. God never changed the purpose of why He commanded people to tithe. Both testaments clearly agree that His ministers (sons of Levi in the old testament, 5-fold ministry of the new testament) were to be provided for from those to whom they ministered. Numbers 18:21 (along with several other verses), and the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 9 and Galatians 6:6 agree together on this matter.

Jesus had no problem with tithing (Matthew 23:23), it was the incorrect emphasis, not the tithing itself, for which He condemned the scribes and Pharisees.

The condemnation of Malachi 3:10 is that there were no provisions (or a disregard for bringing provisions) for God's ministers. He considered this akin to robbing God Himself (Malachi 3:8).

Clearly, the Lord commanded (1 Corinthians 9:14) that His new testament ministers be provided for. This is consistent and taught to new testament churches (examples: 1 Corinthians 9 the entire chapter, Galatians 6:6, 1 Timothy 5:17)

1 Corinthians 9 uses very strong language to convey this principle. However, the only example that Paul has is the tithe of the old testament (v13). The Corinthians are Gentiles and Paul is bringing up tithing to Gentiles as though they understand what he is referring to (he knows what he taught them when he was present with them). In v14, he writes that the Lord brings forward AS A COMMAND that the gospel minister be provided for.

Would a man rob God? If you are not providing for those whom God has set in your church to minister to you, then, yes, you make yourself a thief.

HRea, this post my brother is APOSTOLIC. I wish all could get your concept of tithing.

Dont ever change my brother.