Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Barb

We ALL do not judge one's salvation or condemn folks to hell as we both know some do.

Not all OP churches are like you have experienced and I am deeply, deeply sorry about what you have gone through.

But please understand that one doesn't have to be guilty of a thing to be offended, For some, your hurt goes so deep you can't see this, and again, I am sorry...truly sorry.

When one says, "You all don't mind telling folks..." or "You all are the ones who degrade..." then yeah, I take offense, because warts and all, I am part of the "all" to which you refer.

I wish you could see that...

Barb, I do recognize that perhaps not all are this way to another human being. However, the few who do not participate in decimating other people over standards, also do nothing to stop those that do this. They will not correct their sister to reach out instead of gossiping and shunning.


So...by their silence one can only believe that they agree with the more outspoken who choose to blabber things to the congregation about another person.

I feel pretty certain that if you and I were to talk face to face, we would not be defending ourselves on your standards or my lack thereof. I feel certain that we would have a decent discussion and come to terms with each other's views and I know that I would accept your views. I suppose a forum setting leaves me wondering if you and others would love me just because I am human without judging how I look by my hair and clothing, if I were to be an acquaintance around your fellowship. Would you look upon me as a fellow sister, cut hair and all? Or would the undertone be "she's not saved because she does not follow the standards of the church"?

My children remember how shabby they were treated by other pentecostal kids. Yet, some of them lived their life committing adultery, pregnancy outside of marriage, etc. and some of these never cut their hair. Another did cut her hair but is still treated as one who is on the inside because she is a pastor's daughter. I just feel badly that there seems to be a double standard here.

My strong words come from years of trying to understand and get along with some pentecostals who absolutely do not try to reciprocate to get to know some people before they start judging. I guess I lost patience.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Barb, I do recognize that perhaps not all are this way to another human being. However, the few who do not participate in decimating other people over standards, also do nothing to stop those that do this. They will not correct their sister to reach out instead of gossiping and shunning.


So...by their silence one can only believe that they agree with the more outspoken who choose to blabber things to the congregation about another person.

I feel pretty certain that if you and I were to talk face to face, we would not be defending ourselves on your standards or my lack thereof. I feel certain that we would have a decent discussion and come to terms with each other's views and I know that I would accept your views. I suppose a forum setting leaves me wondering if you and others would love me just because I am human without judging how I look by my hair and clothing, if I were to be an acquaintance around your fellowship. Would you look upon me as a fellow sister, cut hair and all? Or would the undertone be "she's not saved because she does not follow the standards of the church"?

My children remember how shabby they were treated by other pentecostal kids. Yet, some of them lived their life committing adultery, pregnancy outside of marriage, etc. and some of these never cut their hair. Another did cut her hair but is still treated as one who is on the inside because she is a pastor's daughter. I just feel badly that there seems to be a double standard here.

My strong words come from years of trying to understand and get along with some pentecostals who absolutely do not try to reciprocate to get to know some people before they start judging. I guess I lost patience.

lol Again, assumption on your part.

How do you know that no one tries to correct folks? How do you know they sit in silence?

If me nitpicking at every point causes even one person to take pause, I will be a happy camper.

And understand this...my love meter does not swing one way or the other by appearances, for they are often deceiving.

[acerrak]

so i was studying on jewish law and customs, and i was sorta shocked. the men expecially the high priest was to cut his hair before the holidays. Yes they where told when to get a haircut. however the king was to have his hair cut everyday...

these btw are not actual commands from God, this is the law written by man who have declared them to be by God but they are nothing of it really.

If hair was a issue God would have past down the requirements when he brought down the 10 commandments.

also Jewish customs only talk about a woman putting on a viel only after they was married. so since the viel was only applied to after the girl was hitched, makes me wonder if paul was addressing married women.

None the less it is all traditions, and by no means any type of biblical law on it that we find in the Old testament or in jewish heritage except for the man made law written.

another interesting thing i learned was that a woman was to cover her head because of the guilt of eve's sin

the custom of hair covering as a sign of a woman's shame and feeling of guilt for Eve's sin. The Midrash implicitly understands Eve's attractiveness as having contributed to her temptation and seduction of the man. Consequently, it became her responsibility to modestly cover her hair, considered a sexually alluring feature that men would be powerless to resist.


we have the midrash, the Tznuit, which are reffered to as dat Yehudit or jewish customs or jewish law , not to be confused with dat Moshe the law of moses.

dat Yehudit or jewish customs or jewish law, are changable depending on the rabbi of the day and these changed often with things being added to or taken away or being redifned by a different rabbi during different times of the ages.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Barb

lol Again, assumption on your part.

How do you know that no one tries to correct folks? How do you know they sit in silence?

If me nitpicking at every point causes even one person to take pause, I will be a happy camper.

And understand this...my love meter does not swing one way or the other by appearances, for they are often deceiving.

Assumption? No you are wrong. I tried to talk to several pentecostal people and pastor's wife and one even indicated to me that she did not want to get involved. Then the shunning started.


This is the same type of callous response on your part as others have to make light of or dismiss a concern that other women have about your standards. Laughing at my concern tells me that you make light of other people's concerns, yet blow up when somebody crosses your convictions.

I should have expected it.

I suspect that very few of "you all" that espouse the hair doctrine will ever seriously want to know what other women who do not ascribe to your standards feel like and want to work to come to an acceptable solution for all. That would be compromising ...right?

You are right. We are just going around the tree with this.

Feel free to ignore me.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by acerrak

so i was studying on jewish law and customs, and i was sorta shocked. the men expecially the high priest was to cut his hair before the holidays. Yes they where told when to get a haircut. however the king was to have his hair cut everyday...

these btw are not actual commands from God, this is the law written by man who have declared them to be by God but they are nothing of it really.

If hair was a issue God would have past down the requirements when he brought down the 10 commandments.

also Jewish customs only talk about a woman putting on a viel only after they was married. so since the viel was only applied to after the girl was hitched, makes me wonder if paul was addressing married women.

None the less it is all traditions, and by no means any type of biblical law on it that we find in the Old testament or in jewish heritage except for the man made law written.

another interesting thing i learned was that a woman was to cover her head because of the guilt of eve's sin

the custom of hair covering as a sign of a woman's shame and feeling of guilt for Eve's sin. The Midrash implicitly understands Eve's attractiveness as having contributed to her temptation and seduction of the man. Consequently, it became her responsibility to modestly cover her hair, considered a sexually alluring feature that men would be powerless to resist.


we have the midrash, the Tznuit, which are reffered to as dat Yehudit or jewish customs or jewish law , not to be confused with dat Moshe the law of moses.

dat Yehudit or jewish customs or jewish law, are changable depending on the rabbi of the day and these changed often with things being added to or taken away or being redifned by a different rabbi during different times of the ages.

I guess that Paul has more authority since he wrote 16 verses out of 66 books that people interpret to be that women should have uncut hair ?

Sorry. I just get discouraged about some people who make a mountain out of a molehill out of hair being a commandment and a condition to salvation.

Actually, to be more on topic of what you have written, I think we would be even more surprised to learn of other jewish traditions that was written in the other book called the talmud.

[Sam]

under the old testament, both men and women could take a vow of a nazarite (numbers chapter 6) and not cut their hair for a period of time

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Sam

under the old testament, both men and women could take a vow of a nazarite (numbers chapter 6) and not cut their hair for a period of time

or you could be like samuel and never have it cut at all.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I guess that Paul has more authority since he wrote 16 verses out of 66 books that people interpret to be that women should have uncut hair ?

Sorry. I just get discouraged about some people who make a mountain out of a molehill out of hair being a commandment and a condition to salvation.

Actually, to be more on topic of what you have written, I think we would be even more surprised to learn of other jewish traditions that was written in the other book called the talmud.

i started to look at it last night but it was late. I just wanted to show that it was dealing with the times and the customs of the day. same with the clothes. there was no real difference between a man and a womans clothes back in biblical day in Judaism. they where pretty much the same, some times only seperated because of color. But color doesnt mean that it becomes gender based.

Joseph had a coat of many colors.

Had it been such a great issue then it would be clearly defined through out the Bible. No where does it say that it is a sin for a woman to cut her hair. that is just a man made concept. and Some people trying to empower their own fake doctrine by scaring believers into thier traditions.

[The Lemon]

Let's try not to be harsh to each other. I realize many on this forum have come out of abusive situations, and I know first hand the damage it can cause to ones emotions, perceptions, and even their walk with the Lord. Having said that, there are many others on here that have had great under-shepherds that have been gentle, humble, and loving - so it is very hard for each side to truly see where the other is coming from.

Many times hurt can come out in forms of anger, and this must be guarded against. Convictions need to be respected by everyone that is a christian, regardless of how strict or seemingly loose. We are commanded to love one another, and a soft answer turns away wrath.

Be confident in who you are in Christ, if you are where you need to be, you don't need to defend your choices and convictions, and you won't feel the impulse to do so - again, I speak from experience. We need to be sure that in all we endeavor to do that the one person we ask above all others is Jesus - we need His input, we need His guidance.

It is so easy to argue and fuss, and even open old wounds, but sometimes we don't take enough time to ask the Lord what He thinks, or how He feels in light of ourselves and our understanding of His Word.

[acerrak]

@Lemon, as i stated before, most dont care either way if your cut it or dont. Its when some one makes it a heaven or hell issue, or states that a woman cutting thier hair is lost as 2 boys kissing is the issue.

Traditions are fine, but when that tradition becomes a standard for salvation whether you keep it or lose it, then yeah something needs to be said.

You want to grow hair down to your ankles by all means im not stopping you and i wont tell you its wrong. I will tell you its wrong to say that your lost or a hell bound sinner cause you did cut it.

I think that is the point. we all have personal convictions i guess, some of what people declare as a personal conviction from God i do question because i find no bases for what they have been convicted of, but its not my place to tell them to do or not do it. But if His personal conviction some how becomes a standard that must be upheld in everyone's walk with God and it becomes a Holiness or hell issue, then yes i have major issues