PART 1
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Originally Posted by bishoph
I have sat on the sidelines and read many of the posts on this thread, some while laughing and others with disdain. While I do not claim to have all knowledge concerning the Word of God by any means, this is just one area that I have done much study in and realize that most of what is debated on this topic is more rhetoric and male ego than biblical precedence.
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That's your opinion but sorry to say not the truth. Did you come to enhance the conversation with a strong argument or did you just enter the fray to tell those who are counter your view that they are just babbling?
Male ego has nothing to do with anything; the truth is what we are trying to discuss. Not whether or not a sister is being oppressed by the powers that be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bishoph
We must not just be able to copy and paste scripture; we must rightly divide the Word. We often claim exclusive rights to base a doctrine or a teaching on just one scripture (or in this case two which are closely related yet different) yet we discredit anyone who builds a doctrine on one scripture that we don't agree with, it is this kind of rhetoric that causes us to look like a cult to the rest of the world. We must make sure that what we are applying has a solid biblical (Apostolic) precedence. The safety net then is to compare these one or two scriptures to the rest of scripture to determine what Paul is really speaking about. Then and only then will we be able to determine what a scholar of the Law (Paul) was trying to say, or if indeed he was trying to establish a new standard for the New Testament Church.
When you study out the topic in the Old Testament we find that men were used by God as Prophets. Strongs 5030 nabiy' naw-bee' from 'naba'' (5012); a prophet or (generally) inspired man:--prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.
Women were used by God as Prophetesses Strongs 5031 feminine of 'nabiy'' (5030); a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by association a prophet's wife:--prophetess.
To put it plainly they were simply a female prophet. And nearly every woman who is classified as a female prophet prophesied to men and women. There are only a few examples and many men use the scarcity of their mention to state that it is not Gods perfect plan, and that these woman only were appointed because there was no man who would step up. For the sake of space we can address that later. However, let me state that I do not believe every woman who preaches is called, anointed, sent, etc (neither is every man)
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You started out your post by saying those who were involved in this discussion were lead by male egos and arguments were a bunch of rhetoric?
I have news for you the above is just that. A lot of words that really haven't said much. You presented the two Hebrew words for prophet and prophetess, but did you notice that the word prophetess primary meaning is that she was first the wife of a prophet? Do you have any OT cases in which any female prophetess taught men? When you do a study on this subject how many females to males among the prophets do we find?
You will find that the majority is men and that the whole woman's movement in the OT was not as big as the Female Preacher Advocates would have you to believe.
God's perfect plan is that men teach men. Male leadership is God's pattern when men mature, and it's not God's plan that men stay under a mommy figure. Sorry if that sounds like male ego, it's not, it's just some plain common sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bishoph
God extended this same precedent into the New Testament church through the Prophecy of Joel. Joel 2:28.......and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy...... Strongs 5012 naba' naw-baw' a primitive root; to prophesy, i.e. speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse):--prophesy(-ing), make self a prophet. |
The prophecy in Joel is speaking of a spiritual utterance. This would be the indicator of one recieveing the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus told Nicodemus that
"the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
The wind is the Greek word for the Spirit of God, and the Greek word for sound is the Greek word for voice. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that when someone is born of the Spirit that they will hear the sound, voice of the Spirit coming out of them.
In the same way those who are descibed by the prophet Joel would prophesy.
Num 11:29
"And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!"
When the prophet Moses prophesied of the time of the Holy Ghost out pouring in the first century he was speaking of the time when ALL of God's people would be prophets and prophesy.
When the 70 elders had the Spirit placed upon them they prophesied.
Num 11:25
"And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease."
For anyone to say that everyone in the Body of Christ is part of the five-fold ministry is absolutely presenting a teaching that is not found within scripture.
Was the church to be Kings and Priests? Yes, were they all to be prophets? I would say yes, were they all to be part of the five-fold ministry? I would say no. Are women to minister to women? I must say yes. Are women to teach married men and adult single men? We have no scripture for it and therefore we must say NO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bishoph
Notice that God did not limit prophecy to men in fact he specifically made mention of "daughters/women."
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The prophet is speaking of the same thing that Moses spoke of in Numbers and that is when the time would come when all of Israel would have a spiritual utterance and they would all prophesy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bishoph
First we can argue the point all day long that if Paul wrote something and it made it into the Bible it is God who spoke it. Not entirely so; because even the great Apostle admitted that some things he said were not by inspiration but rather by permission. (Just as I believe today that a pastor has the God given right to set precedence in his local church, but as the Apostle he must identify what is his precedence versus what is scriptural mandate.)
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You need to be careful how you tackle that, because Rabbis and atheists use the same argument to prove that Paul made his doctrine up as he went along. What Paul spoke by permission is how he interpreted the OT for the Gentiles. You will notice that Paul is teaching those who have never raised with the Torah law, and therefore had no clue as to the practices of Judaism.
Peter said that some things that Brother Paul taught were hard to understand how can Peter make that statement if Paul was teaching everything straight out of the Torah Law? Wouldn't all the Christian Jews understand what Paul was saying? No, Peter was reporting on Paul's deep understanding of Paul's knowledge of the revelation of the Gentiles engrafted into Israel, making up the Bride of Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bishoph
Having said that, let me split hairs with you a moment and remind you that Paul never said that the prohibition of a woman teaching or usurping authority over a man was a God given mandate. In fact he said "I" suffer not.... One could easily argue that this was not a church rule but rather a personal preference of Pauls and just as we teach our preferences to our ministry trainees Paul was addressing Timothy.
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You aren't splitting hairs you are not even addressing a teaching but presenting your own anti-teaching. Which is you want us to believe that Paul was just meeting the needs of his culture of the first century? Please let me show you were that would be wrong and later on in your own post I will show you where and how you back up my view.
The Roman Empire and its citizens had no mandate against women in public leadership positions. It would not be odd to some Gentiles that a woman held the office of a priestess, meaning a religious figure. So whom is Paul presenting his no female leadership to? Paul is taking a Jewish OT precedent and bringing it to his Gentile converts. He is also having the young Evangelist Timothy follow this same ruling. Therefore Paul was not dictating to culture but no women teachers was a mandate in the New Covenant church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bishoph
Brethren/sisters I think many of us may have overlooked a Biblical Principal while trying to feed the male ego JMHO.
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Sad that you want to prop up the "male ego" argument instead of just presenting your case. In other words taking the time to jab a sharp stick in the eye is not winning your debate.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com
I took no artistic license. I said that Deborah encouraged Barak and that she went with him. I see no "artistic license" with that. 
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