Billy Graham

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

So I guess you and EB are sharing the mantle of former poster Sean, huh? You truly do not see the difference between Baalam and a Holy Ghost filled man like Wilkerson who God used in a mighty way to bring deliverance from sin through that same Holy Ghost infilling to thousands of drug addicts and violent gang members? By comparing him to Balaam, Hasmonean, and Gamaliel, you are completely poo-pooing one of the greatest testimonies for Jesus Christ of the 20th century. And please don't start your previously distortion that I'm teaching salvation by works. The infilling of the Holy isn't just one of 3 steps to salvation. It is salvation. When God fills someone with the Holy Ghost, he is declaring them free from the condemnation of the law of sin and death (Romans 8:1-2). This is why what you and EB are doing is so grievous and actually is eerily similar to the Pharisees attributing the works of God to Satan.

Bro, now we are Sean?

Seriously?

But even worse, Esaias and I are blaspheming the Holy Ghost?

David Wilkerson? Originalist, please take time to reread your post. Your only basis for this gentleman’s salvation are his “works” nothing more. Bro, the greatest testimony in the 20th century? I guess to you God is a respector of persons? Bro, if we are saved without the Word, then there is no foundation. If the foundation is destroyed, then humanity is lost. Esaias’ words were sober, why can’t you consider them in the light of your own? Can’t you see that the only reason you give these men heaven is because you view them as some great one?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Why pray for the dead if repentance is unavailable and if grace and mercy have ended for their soul?

And if a man dies alienated from God, no amount of earthly prayers are going to spring him from Hell.

As it relates to prayer... For me prayer is more than a petition. Prayer takes many forms. While prayer can be a petition, it can be an intercession (for the living), it can be praise, it can be a adoration, it can be imprecation, it can be a meditation, prayer can be a contemplation, prayer can be a steady state of mind maintained throughout the day, and among many other things, prayer can be just an expression of the heart, an expression of sentiment. When I pray to God and say, "God, have mercy on this man's soul.", I know that God has already determined what to do and the man's destiny is set. However, for me, when letting go of someone I admired, thought was a good person, or loved, like a family member, I've found that this simple prayer of sentiment helps me to let go. It helps me express to God how I feel. Do I want any man to God to Hell, generally, no. So, I've found that expressing to God my desire that He have mercy unpacks my feelings, and lays them before God. Now, as I said, God will do as God has already determined to do. I know that. And, when I've prayed this, I've also expressed how loving, merciful, and sovereign that I believe He is. It's just part of the process of letting go. In commending their soul to God and praying that God have mercy, I've completely given it to Him, expressed my feelings, and closed the book.

And some people will even judge my grieving process. After all, barking dogs are barking dogs. That's all they know how to do.

Now, does the Bible command that we do this? No, not at all. But does it command that we not do this? No. I could pray for a unicorn if I wished. Now, I don't think I'd get it. LOL My daughter actually prayed for a pink pony once. LOL It's a part of my process. I was deeply troubled over the loss of my grandfather (a Baptist). I even had some nightmares about it. I talked to my pastor at the time and he said, "Chris, you have to give the person to God. He was a man of faith?", I explained that my grandfather was a man of deep faith, but that he was Baptist. My pastor said, "Well, just pray that God have mercy and let him go. You have to give him to God." And that is exactly what I did. I felt the weight of the world come off my shoulders by just expressing to God how I felt. Do I believe that will change the outcome of the final judgment. No. But if God has decided to count my grandfather's faith as genuine and have mercy on my grandfather's misunderstandings, I certainly wouldn't complain. So, I'm comfortable with knowing that I've expressed my feelings to God, and I've surrendered his soul to God. What will be will be.

Do I believe that the dead pray?

It depends on what one means by "pray". Do they repent with hope of salvation? No. Their fate is sealed. Do they express desire to escape their torments, how could they not? Might they express concerns with pleading and begging for the lost souls of loved ones who they fear are on their way to the very same Hell in which they suffer? Certainly. Do they plead for mercy? Of course, who wouldn't? But can their fate be changed? If I read my Bible correctly, no.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, now we are Sean?

Seriously?

But even worse, Esaias and I are blaspheming the Holy Ghost?

David Wilkerson? Originalist, please take time to reread your post. Your only basis for this gentleman’s salvation are his “works” nothing more.

I quote myself..."The infilling of the Holy isn't just one of 3 steps to salvation. It is salvation." That is the basis of Wilkerson's and everyone else's salvation who belongs to Christ by virtue of the fact they have the Spirit of Christ. So yes, you are indeed acting like Sean.


Bro, the greatest testimony in the 20th century?

Again, you are pulling a Sean. And again, I quote myself..." you are completely poo-pooing one of the greatest testimonies for Jesus Christ of the 20th century." I did not say "the greatest testimony in the 20th century". You should apologize and repent.


I guess to you God is a respector of persons?


No, he is not. Peter mentions this concerning Cornelius in Acts 10. He was no respecter of persons in giving Wilkerson the Holy Ghost, just like he gave it to you.

Bro, if we are saved without the Word, then there is no foundation. If the foundation is destroyed, then humanity is lost. Esaias’ words were sober, why can’t you consider them in the light of your own? Can’t you see that the only reason you give these men heaven is because you view them as some great one?


So sad that neither you or Esaias see the harsh judgment you are setting yourselves up for. You are actually claiming doctrinal perfection. But know this, if there is even the slightest misunderstanding in anything you believe, then you are headed for hell. You guys think you are defending the word, but you are really puffed up with spiritual pride. We are talking about people who, like us, stand on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as their means of salvation. These are men and women who preach "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost" just like we do. Yes, I think they have misunderstood the timing of that work of God and further erred by thinking there are "2 works of grace". But God STILL bears witness of them, giving them the same gift he gave you. God is striving with them as they sort through doctrinal clarification just as he is striving with YOU. The sad part is, you don't think God is striving with you. After all, you know "the truth", and there is no more striving needed on God's part where you are concerned, right? I shudder sometimes when I read the things you guys post. I cry out, "Please have mercy on my brothers! Help them to understand just how dependent they really are on the grace you bestowed on them when you gave them your Spirit". Brother, I truly say these things out of concern. I look forward to seeing you in Glory. But I hate to think of the shame you will bear before the throne as much of what you taught is burned up as wood, hay, and stubble as it passes through the fire.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

"I'm standing for God's Sovereignty to contradict His Word so I can feel better about my moral superiority compared to these Bible-worshipping hillbillies."

yuk yuk

God’s “sovereignty” means that He is absolute in authority and unrestricted in His supremacy. We don't serve a God who can be put in a box, or chained to a pulpit, nor is He the lapdog of cultists. Nor do we serve a God who has haphazardly painted Himself into a box, thereby tying His hands, leaving Him incapable of saving those who have cried out to Him, through faith in Christ.

The Bible is clear. There can be no salvation outside of faith in Christ Jesus. We know that the fullness of NT salvation includes justification by faith, identification in baptism, and regeneration through the Spirit. These are the spiritual realities experienced in Acts 2:38. Only God is qualified to judge those precious souls who have only partially experienced these NT realities. As sovereign Judge and King, only He can grant mercy or deny it.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Any soul who has genuinely called upon the name of Jesus, repenting of their unbelief, has experienced justification. Justification is received on behalf of faith, and faith alone. In another thread, the Five Solas were adequately defended by Apostolics. Let's look at Sola Fide (Source: Theopedia):

Faith alone (Sola Fide)

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God's perfect justice. Our justification does not rest on any merit to be found in us, nor upon the grounds of an infusion of Christ's righteousness in us, nor that an institution claiming to be a church that denies or condemns sola fide can be recognized as a legitimate church.

When one repents of sin and unbelief and turns to Christ at the altar, they experience justification. This means they stand before God as though they've never sinned. Christ's sinless righteousness is imputed to them by faith. Being justified by faith alone is what allows one to stand sinless before God and be illegible to receive the Holy Ghost... demonstrative proof of this rests in the reality that the Holy Spirit can be received prior to baptism or after baptism. Justification is received by faith alone.

Now, let's consider John Wesley. Let's assume that John Wesley called upon the name of the Lord, in genuine repentance. If so, he was justified by faith (Sola Fide). This means that even if he wasn't water baptized in the name of Jesus (identification), or baptized in the Holy Spirit (regeneration), he still faithfully lived and died in a justified state.

What will a sovereign God do with John Wesley? What will God do with a man who perished in a justified state but who hadn't moved on into the fullness of Apostolic identification and regeneration?

I contend that only God is sovereignly qualified to judge Wesley on account of God's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. God knows the thoughts and intents of Wesley's heart. God has the absolute power necessary to do as He pleases. And only God was present with Wesley throughout his sojourn on earth.

And so, I lay before you the case that based on the "Solas" (which are adequately defended by Apostolics on this forum) there are precious souls justified by "faith alone" who God is sovereignly capable of redeeming should He desire to do so.

So what was Wesley's fate? I don't know. If his faith was sincere, he lived and died justified before God. If his faith wasn't sincere he was merely religious. Let's wait and find out.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

God’s “sovereignty” means that He is absolute in authority and unrestricted in His supremacy. We don't serve a God who can be put in a box, or chained to a pulpit, nor is He the lapdog of cultists. Nor do we serve a God who has haphazardly painted Himself into a box, thereby tying His hands, leaving Him incapable of saving those who have cried out to Him, through faith in Christ.

The Bible is clear. There can be no salvation outside of faith in Christ Jesus. We know that the fullness of NT salvation includes justification by faith, identification in baptism, and regeneration through the Spirit. These are the spiritual realities experienced in Acts 2:38. Only God is qualified to judge those precious souls who have only partially experienced these NT realities. As sovereign Judge and King, only He can grant mercy or deny it.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Any soul who has genuinely called upon the name of Jesus, repenting of their unbelief, has experienced justification. Justification is received on behalf of faith, and faith alone. In another thread, the Five Solas were adequately defended by Apostolics. Let's look at Sola Fide (Source: Theopedia):

Faith alone (Sola Fide)

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God's perfect justice. Our justification does not rest on any merit to be found in us, nor upon the grounds of an infusion of Christ's righteousness in us, nor that an institution claiming to be a church that denies or condemns sola fide can be recognized as a legitimate church.

When one repents of sin and unbelief and turns to Christ at the altar, they experience justification. This means they stand before God as though they've never sinned. Christ's sinless righteousness is imputed to them by faith. Being justified by faith alone is what allows one to stand sinless before God and be illegible to receive the Holy Ghost... demonstrative proof of this rests in the reality that the Holy Spirit can be received prior to baptism or after baptism. Justification is received by faith alone.

Now, let's consider John Wesley. Let's assume that John Wesley called upon the name of the Lord, in genuine repentance. If so, he was justified by faith (Sola Fide). This means that even if he wasn't water baptized in the name of Jesus (identification), or baptized in the Holy Spirit (regeneration), he still faithfully lived and died in a justified state.

What will a sovereign God do with John Wesley? What will God do with a man who perished in a justified state but who hadn't moved on into the fullness of Apostolic identification and regeneration?


I think there is a greater question here. How could Wesley and others have been so used of God, had the insights they had, and lived the holy lives they did without being regenerated? None of the above is possible without being indwelt by the Spirit of Christ. There is no way the carnal mind can be in subjection to the law of God, according to Paul in Romans 8. Without the Spirit living in them, regenerating them, they would not have even had an interest in the things of God, much less the ability to spiritually discern them. "Oh, but they stumbled over the tongues issue!!" So that alone cancels out every other consideration? We all are stumbling over some doctrinal area whether we want to admit it or not. Therefore, if Wesley is condemned for not fully grasping tongues, then anyone who is stumbling over tithing or any other point is also damned.

I contend that only God is sovereignly qualified to judge Wesley on account of God's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. God knows the thoughts and intents of Wesley's heart. God has the absolute power necessary to do as He pleases. And only God was present with Wesley throughout his sojourn on earth.

And so, I lay before you the case that based on the "Solas" (which are adequately defended by Apostolics on this forum) there are precious souls justified by "faith alone" who God is sovereignly capable of redeeming should He desire to do so.

So what was Wesley's fate? I don't know. Let's wait and find out.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

And if a man dies alienated from God, no amount of earthly prayers are going to spring him from Hell.

It depends on what one means by "pray". Do they repent with hope of salvation? No. Their fate is sealed. Do they express desire to escape their torments, how could they not? Might they express concerns with pleading and begging for the lost souls of loved ones who they fear are on their way to the very same Hell in which they suffer? Certainly. Do they plead for mercy? Of course, who wouldn't? But can their fate be changed? If I read my Bible correctly, no.

But yet you posted a while back suggesting that very thing.

Originally Posted by Aquila

First, the Final Judgment hasn't happened yet.
Second, according to Scripture the dead are very much still alive and awaiting final judgment.
Thirdly, all prayers are given to a living God who can do anything He desires.

So, I don't see any harm in praying that God have mercy on anyone who has passed on.

In one post, you suggest that since Judgment hasn't happened, since dead are actually still alive and since God answers prayer . . . you don't see harm in asking God for mercy on the dead.

But then after I question it, you claim that I'm posting a baseless charge, that it's part of your grieving and that their fate is sealed.

It's hard responding to your posts when your position changes from one to the other.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I think there is a greater question here. How could Wesley and others have been so used of God, had the insights they had, and lived the holy lives they did without being regenerated? None of the above is possible without being indwelt by the Spirit of Christ. There is no way the carnal mind can be in subjection to the law of God, according to Paul in Romans 8. Without the Spirit living in them, regenerating them, they would not have even had an interest in the things of God, much less the ability to spiritually discern them. "Oh, but they stumbled over the tongues issue!!" So that alone cancels out every other consideration? We all are stumbling over some doctrinal area whether we want to admit it or not. Therefore, if Wesley is condemned for not fully grasping tongues, then anyone who is stumbling over tithing or any other point is also damned.

I think it should be noted that care should be taken here, else one fall into the error of Monergism. In non-Calvinist churches there is the doctrine of "Prevenient Grace". This is the impartation of grace provided by the Holy Spirit prior to conversion that opens the eyes of the soul to their need for a Savior. While Prevenient Grace has a regenerative element to it, it isn't the fullness of regeneration itself, which takes place when one is baptized in the Holy Spirit.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

But yet you posted a while back suggesting that very thing.

I entertained the notion based on the oppositions accusations. It's like saying, "Well, seriously? Okay, if so...." I even continually mentioned that you guys were dragging it further than what was intended.

In one post, you suggest that since Judgment hasn't happened, since dead are actually still alive and since God answers prayer . . . you don't see harm in asking God for mercy on the dead.

I don't see harm in asking that God have mercy on anyone, at any time. As I've illustrated several times, it can be a way of releasing them and letting them go, commending their destiny to God. Whatever that destiny might be.

But then after I question it, you claim that I'm posting a baseless charge, that it's part of your grieving and that their fate is sealed.

I think you're not understanding the multiple levels of my approach.

It's hard responding to your posts when your position changes from one to the other.

It only appears to change because you're not listening. Many of my responses are hypotheticals only said in response to baseless accusations... with plenty of "ifs".

As I've said before, relax. Slow down. Read. Ask more direct questions and not questions you've concocted to counter a position you presuppose that you're dealing with.

[Aquila]

I'm going to repost this. Because I want it to get adequate attention.

Originally Posted by Aquila

God’s “sovereignty” means that He is absolute in authority and unrestricted in His supremacy. We don't serve a God who can be put in a box, or chained to a pulpit, nor is He the lapdog of cultists. Nor do we serve a God who has haphazardly painted Himself into a box, thereby tying His hands, leaving Him incapable of saving those who have cried out to Him, through faith in Christ.

The Bible is clear. There can be no salvation outside of faith in Christ Jesus. We know that the fullness of NT salvation includes justification by faith, identification in baptism, and regeneration through the Spirit. These are the spiritual realities experienced in Acts 2:38. Only God is qualified to judge those precious souls who have only partially experienced these NT realities. As sovereign Judge and King, only He can grant mercy or deny it.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Any soul who has genuinely called upon the name of Jesus, repenting of their unbelief, has experienced justification. Justification is received on behalf of faith, and faith alone. In another thread, the Five Solas were adequately defended by Apostolics. Let's look at Sola Fide (Source: Theopedia):

Faith alone (Sola Fide)

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God's perfect justice. Our justification does not rest on any merit to be found in us, nor upon the grounds of an infusion of Christ's righteousness in us, nor that an institution claiming to be a church that denies or condemns sola fide can be recognized as a legitimate church.

When one repents of sin and unbelief and turns to Christ at the altar, they experience justification. This means they stand before God as though they've never sinned. Christ's sinless righteousness is imputed to them by faith. Being justified by faith alone is what allows one to stand sinless before God and be illegible to receive the Holy Ghost... demonstrative proof of this rests in the reality that the Holy Spirit can be received prior to baptism or after baptism. Justification is received by faith alone.

Now, let's consider John Wesley. Let's assume that John Wesley called upon the name of the Lord, in genuine repentance. If so, he was justified by faith (Sola Fide). This means that even if he wasn't water baptized in the name of Jesus (identification), or baptized in the Holy Spirit (regeneration), he still faithfully lived and died in a justified state.

What will a sovereign God do with John Wesley? What will God do with a man who perished in a justified state but who hadn't moved on into the fullness of Apostolic identification and regeneration?

I contend that only God is sovereignly qualified to judge Wesley on account of God's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. God knows the thoughts and intents of Wesley's heart. God has the absolute power necessary to do as He pleases. And only God was present with Wesley throughout his sojourn on earth.

And so, I lay before you the case that based on the "Solas" (which are adequately defended by Apostolics on this forum) there are precious souls justified by "faith alone" who God is sovereignly capable of redeeming should He desire to do so.

So what was Wesley's fate? I don't know. If his faith was sincere, he lived and died justified before God. If his faith wasn't sincere he was merely religious. Let's wait and find out.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I entertained the notion based on the oppositions accusations. It's like saying, "Well, seriously? Okay, if so...." I even continually mentioned that you guys were dragging it further than what was intended.

Right.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think you're not understanding the multiple levels of my approach.

You don't have multiple levels. What you do is post things to see if they're accepted or not. Based on that, you either affirm or change your post.

Originally Posted by Aquila

It only appears to change because you're not listening. Many of my responses are hypotheticals only said in response to baseless accusations... with plenty of "ifs".

They appear to change because they literally do change. Your quote I've posted multiple times is not a hypothetical. There were no "ifs" in that. You stated a belief.

Originally Posted by Aquila

As I've said before, relax. Slow down. Read. Ask more direct questions and not questions you've concocted to counter a position you presuppose that you're dealing with.

I have nothing further to add, so I'll end it here.