Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Costeon

It's funny that you would mention this, because just about 45 minutes ago, I was consulting all the translations again, and I'm not sure how I missed this before, but the CEV does in fact say "cut off her hair" as well. So only one, GNT, says "to cut" in both places keiro appears in 1 Cor 11.6. Two, CEV and NLT, have "cut off" and "cut."

*Which I have already explained ad nauseum from UBS, BDAG, etc. my friend .

[1ofthechosen]

Merriam-Webster
Definition of shear
sheared; sheared or shorn play \ˈshȯrn\; shearing
transitive verb
1 a : to cut off the hair from
b : to cut or clip (hair, wool, etc.) from someone or something; also : to cut something from shear a lawn
c chiefly Scotland : to reap with a sickle
d : to cut or trim with shears or a similar instrument
2 : to cut with something sharp
3 : to deprive of something as if by cutting
lives shorn of any hope —M. W. Browne
4 a : to subject to a shear force
b : to cause (something, such as a rock mass) to move along the plane of contact
intransitive verb
1 : to cut through something with or as if with a sharp instrument
2 chiefly Scotland : to reap crops with a sickle
3 : to become divided under the action of a shear
— shearer noun

[1ofthechosen]

So in English and Greek apparently "to cut",and "to be cut off" are synonymous.
So what does that tell you, about 1Corinthians 11:6 "For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."

So it's providing a full range from cut,to her hair cut off, to her hair shaved so what does that tell you? Any of the above is a shame, not one or the other but all.

what does 1 Corinthians 11:15 say the covering is? "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."
Because once again the word translated "for" comes from the Greek Word "anti" or "ἀντί". Meaning "for, instead of, in place of (something)."

And there you have it, Uncut Hair!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Costeon

This verb has been translated in several ways in 1 Cor 11.6. (The following 48 translations are those available on www.biblegateway.com. A few others on that site are not listed since they are closely based on another edition, e.g. NIVUK and the NRSV Anglicized, etc.)


Forty of them render the verb the same way in both places where the verb occurs.

--“she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved” (NIV; also NASB, NRSV, NAB, NJB, AMP, CSB, DARBY, ERV, EHV, EXB, GW, HCSB, ICB, ISV, MEV, NOG, NCV, NET, NLV, TPT, TLV, VOICE, WEB, WE).

--“let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved” (NKJV; also KJV, ASV, DRA, GNV, NMB, OJB, YLT).

--“she should cut her hair short. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut short or have her head shaved” (MOUNCE; also CJB).

--“she might as well cut her hair. And since it is a shameful thing for a woman to shave her head or cut her hair” (GNT).

--“she might just as well have her hair cropped. And if to be cropped or closely shaven is a sign of disgrace to women” (Phillips).

--“let her also have-herself-sheared. But if it is shameful for a woman to have-herself-sheared or shaved” (DLNT).

--“be she polled; and if it is foul thing to a woman to be polled, or to be made bald” (WYC).

--“Worse, she dishonors herself—an ugly sight, like a woman with her head shaved” (MSG).


Eight do not render the verb the same way in both places where the verb occurs.

--ESV: “then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head.”

--CEV: “to shave her head or cut her hair. But if she refuses to wear something on her head, let her cut off her hair.”

--NLT: “she should cut off all her hair! But since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or her head shaved.”

--NTE: “then she should be shaved; but if it’s shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved.”

--RSV: “then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven.”

--TLB: “then she should cut off all her hair. And if it is shameful for a woman to have her head shaved.”

--CEB: “then she should have her hair cut off. If it is disgraceful for a woman to have short hair or to be shaved.”

--LEB: “let her hair be shorn off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her head shorn or shaved.”


Two do not render the verb the same way in the text and in a footnote.

--The NASB translates it as “have her hair cut off” in both places in the text while in the note saying “shear herself.”

--The DLNT translates it as “have-herself-sheared” in both places in the text while in the note saying “cut off your hair.”


Summary of 48 translations consulted on 1 Cor 11.6:

--Of the 48, 37 involve cutting the hair short or removing it altogether.

--Of the 48, 8 are ambiguous, saying only “shorn” in both places the verb occurs, and the meaning of “shorn” is debatable.

--Of the 48, 2 say “to cut” in one of the two places the verb occurs.

--Of the 48, 1 says “to cut” in both places the verb occurs.

Breakdown of the 48 translations:

--25 say “cut off” in both places.
--8 say “shorn” in both places.
--2 say “cut short” in both places.
--1 says “cut her hair” in both places.
--1 says “cropped” in both places.
--1 says “sheared” in both places.
--1 says “polled” in both places.
--1 treats the verbs as exact synonyms and just says “shaved.”

--7 combine “cut off” with something else.
*2 combine this with “cut her hair.”
*2 combine this with “shaved.”
*1 combines this with “cut short.”
*1 combines this with “have short hair.”
*1 combines this with “shorn.”
*1 combines “shorn off” with “shorn.”


There are two other places where keiro appears in the NT.

--Acts 8.32, involving shearing a sheep.

--Acts 18.18, involving Paul cutting his hair after fulfilling a vow.


This verb has been translated in several ways in Acts 18.18:

--“Before sailing from Cenchreae he had his head shaved because of a vow he had taken” (GNT; also CEV, MSG, Mounce, NLT, HCSB, CSB, CEB, EHV, LEB, TLB, NMB, TPT, WEB).

--“At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow” (ESV; also RSV, NRSV, ISV, NAB, NASB, AMP, GW, MEV, NOG OJB, VOICE).

--“Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchreae because of a vow he had taken” (NIV; also NKJV, NET, NJB, ERV, EXB, ICB, NCV, NTE, TLV, WE).

--“having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow” (KJV; also ASV, Darby, DRA, GNV, YLT).

--“At Cenchrea he had his hair cut short, for he had taken a solemn vow” (Phillips; also CJB, NLV).

--“having sheared his head in Cenchrea, for he had a vow” (DLNT).

--“which had clipped his head in Cenchrea” (WYC).


Several of these translations, either in the text itself or in a footnote, note that this cutting signified that Paul had completed a Nazirite vow (CEV, NAB, AMP, ERV, EXB, TPT).


Some of these translations do not render the verb the same way in both the text and a footnote.

--The CEV translates it as “shaved” while in the note saying “to cut his hair.”

--The NAB translates it as “he had his hair cut” while in the note saying that this referred to the Nazirite vow of Num 6.

--The AMP translates it as “had his hair cut” while also in the text mentioning the Nazarite vow.

--The DLNT translates it as “sheared his head” while in the note saying “cut off his hair.”


Summary of 48 translations consulted on Acts 18.18:

--Of the 48, 30 involve cutting the hair short or removing it altogether.

--Of the 48, 18 say cut or shorn within the context of fulfilling a vow, perhaps a Nazirite vote.

Breakdown of the 48 translations:

--14 say “had his head shaved.”
--12 say “had cut his hair.
--11 say “had his hair cut off.”
--6 say he had “shorn his head.”
--3 say “had his hair cut short.”
--1 says he had “sheared his head.”
--1 says he had “clipped his head.”


There are several places where keiro appears in the Greek translation of the OT, the Septuagint, abbreviated as LXX.

Shearing sheep (9 passages)

Cutting grass for gathering hay (Prov 27.25)

Human hair (4 passages; the quotes are from Brenton’s translation, with comparisons from the New English Translation of the Septuagint.)

--2 Sam 14.26: "And when he [Absalom] polled [NETS: “cropped”] his head, (and it was at the beginning of every year that he polled it, because it grew, heavy upon him,) even when he polled it, he weighed the hair of his head, two hundred shekels according to the royal shekel.”

--Job 1.20: "So Job arose, and rent his garments, and shaved the hair of his head, and fell on the earth, and worshipped." Here keiro is rendered “shaved” both in Brenton’s and NETS.

--Jer 30.10: "And their camels shall be a spoil, and the multitude of their cattle shall be destroyed: and I will scatter them as chaff with every wind, having their hair cut about their foreheads [NETS: "when they have been sheared”].

--Micah 1.16: "Shave thine hair, and make thyself bald for thy delicate children." NETS: “Shave, and cut your hair for your pampered children.” Like 1 Cor 11.6, this verse has both xurao (“shave”) and keiro (“make thyself bald” or “cut your hair”). This is the only verse in the Bible that has both these verbs like 1 Cor 11.6.


Summary of LXX usage regarding human hair

--2 involve removing the hair or cutting it short (“shaved,” “polled”/”cropped”).

--1 other could involve shaving or removing the hair if “sheared” is to be preferred to whatever Benton’s unusual rendering means.

--1 other could involve shaving or removing the hair if “make thyself bald” is correct. Or 1 could just involving cutting the hair at all if “cut your hair” is correct.

*And I will point out once again for all of the readers that in the translations that read "cut off," the UBS for translators defines the phrase "cut off" as "literally, cut-her-hair. This probably refers to a regular trimming of her hair" (cf. direct quotes above). Hence, when we read the rendering "cut off," standard Koine' Greek linguists then elucidate this expression as "literally, to cut or trim her hair."

*Indeed, the fact that various translations adopt differing readings in 11.6 for the same Greek verb well demonstrates the interpretive nature and semantic range of these Greek verbs (i.e., "shorn" and "wear long hair"). Thus, the serious Bible student is held hostage by the "literal" Greek text itself, or the originally inspired languages of the Bible (which defines as simply "to cut or trim her hair").

*Further, as quoted earlier in this thread - and substantiated by the most authoritative Greek linguists on the planet - all translations are based upon context. The contexts that deal w. shame, mourning, etc. - are not at all the same contexts as the headship and "nature" as applied to the NT Christian woman under consideration in I Cor. 11.2-15.

*The Greek verbs translated "shorn" (11.6) and "to wear long hair" (11.15) in these passages are defined - in context - by standard Greek authorities that I have marshaled above as simply "to have her hair cut, or not to cut or trim her hair," w. nothing stated in this context about "cutting short." I have repeatedly quoted these sources as they appear above for anyone to see.

*The bottom line is that there is a semantic range to these Greek verbs that is only defined by the immediate contexts in which they appear. As one of my Greek professors once told me about these verses (he graduated Greek 5 w. a 95% and taught at a seminary): "The verb 'shorn' means simply 'to cut,' but can also mean 'to cut short.' Context will be the determiner." He also told me that he teaches that the women should keep the scissors out of their hair, period.

*One cannot mesh diametrically opposing contexts and arrive at a sound orthodoxy nor orthopraxy. We absolutely must allow the differing contexts to stand on their own merit, esp, when something is classified as a "disgrace" before God. I maintain that word usages and concepts applied to sheep (Acts 8.32) or a male (Acts 18.18) cannot be automatically and illegitimately transferred onto the NT Christian female being discussed in I Cor. 11 devoid of immediate context. Again, the polar opposite contexts must be allowed to speak for and define word usages - not vise versa.

*If need be, though this would take me some time to do, I can requote every source that I have already marshaled - and even some that I have not yet posted that clearly define and translate these Greek verbs as flatly "to cut or trim her hair - or to not cut one's hair." Perhaps this would work to encapsulate and codify my points.

*My advice to those who "tremble at His Word" and are "working out their own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2.12) would be to echo my Greek professor who said, "Keep the scissors out of your hair ladies." This is not "control" or "dominance by fear-mongering," but eternity is obviously a very serious matter.

*Back soon.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Well I finally understand 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 enough I think.

I will paraphrase below in red.


1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. (easy to understand)
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. (easy to understand)
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (easy to understand)
4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. (This verse is literally talking about an actual head covering not hair, however based on the principles expounded upon in the later verses it is clear that long hair is not really acceptable for a man either)
5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. (This verse is saying that if a woman sees nothing wrong with not wearing a head covering she shouldn't see anything wrong with shaving her head and it's a rhetorical challenge because it's already known that women there have an issue with being shaven)
6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. (the point by rhetorical challenge is reiterated, if a woman doesn't see a need to wear a head covering then you should be willing to chop all your hair off to prove it, the reasoning for this challenge is explained plainly a few verses down)
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. The first reason for no actual head coverings on men is that God's glory should be shown
8For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. (easy to understand)
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. (easy to understand)
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. (the woman is for the man and because of that she should wear a head covering to denote the man's biblically messaged authority/power over her)
11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. (easy to understand)
12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. (easy to understand)
13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? (apparently there were very few women that did not wear head coverings)
14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? (this verses explanation will be included in the next )
15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. (Nature teaches that long hair on men is a shame and long hair on women is a glory. That's because long hair is given as a natural form of covering. Men should have no head covering because he is the image and glory and even nature proves this by revealing that hair the most natural covering is shameful on a man if long, a woman should have an actual head covering and that's because she is the image and glory of man as has been taught by the messengers of God and because nature itself shows it's a glory for her to have a natural covering of long hair)
16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. (the author says that if anyone disagrees with any of this know that we and no other churches of God would disagree because the custom I have written to you about is the only custom known by us)

In summary, paul uses the natural short hair and long hair understandings of ancient civilization to establish the custom of a head covering on the women. He basically challenges them to cut all their hair off if they disagree and shows they won't do so because naturally it's understood that having their hair all the way off would be shameful. Paul also shows that spiritually and biblically the actual headcovering represents submitting to the husbands authority and that the woman being for the man is something taught by God messenger's.

Long doesn't need defined in this case. It's for society and the church to judge that amongst themselves. In modern times I think it would be safe to say that especially without headcoverings that long hair on women is probably more essential than ever to help show the woman is for the man and submission to husband principle that paul alludes to in 1 Corinthians 11.

Any questions?

*Wrong - see "literal Greek" (UBS) and lexical quotes above. Any questions ?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

So in English and Greek apparently "to cut",and "to be cut off" are synonymous.
So what does that tell you, about 1Corinthians 11:6 "For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."

So it's providing a full range from cut,to her hair cut off, to her hair shaved so what does that tell you? Any of the above is a shame, not one or the other but all.

what does 1 Corinthians 11:15 say the covering is? "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."
Because once again the word translated "for" comes from the Greek Word "anti" or "ἀντί". Meaning "for, instead of, in place of (something)."

And there you have it, Uncut Hair!

[1ofthechosen]

And in Acts 18:18 "And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow." If this is a Nazarite Vow this means he shaved his head bald am I right?

If so, this word covers every range of cut hair. To be cut, to be cut short, to be cut off, hence the translations being the way they are, the CEV and the GNT. Then that would make sense, the context would be determined by the gender it's speaking of, or species. But also explains why Paul went back to the order of creation at the beginning, to set the guideline for the way the context should be deciphered. He was trying to explain and to convey it in the best way he could with a lack of words, he referred to the order of creation first, to guide you like a compass to what he was intending.

Because he wrote as moved on by the Holy Ghost. And you can rest assure that the Holy Ghost knew that us, and many others would be debating this very topic. So because of a lack of words to use, he even began with a illustration. Letting us know how to decipher what was being said by using the same word, when looking at it in a gender specific view!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

And in Acts 18:18 "And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow." If this is a Nazarite Vow this means he shaved his head bald am I right?

If so, this word covers every range of cut hair. To be cut, to be cut short, to be cut off, hence the translations being the way they are, the CEV and the GNT. Then that would make sense, the context would be determined by the gender it's speaking of, or species. But also explains why Paul went back to the order of creation at the beginning, to set the guideline for the way the context should be deciphered. He was trying to explain and to convey it in the best way he could with a lack of words, he referred to the order of creation first, to guide you like a compass to what he was intending.

Because he wrote as moved on by the Holy Ghost. And you can rest assure that the Holy Ghost knew that us, and many others would be debating this very topic. So because of a lack of words to use, he even began with a illustration. Letting us know how to decipher what was being said by using the same word, when looking at it in a gender specific view!

*Very good points Bro. This view favors an integrated word meaning contra a segregated word meaning. That is, since there is a semantic range to this Greek verb immediate context will be the only determiner. This has been my contention the whole time.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by rdp

*Wrong - see "literal Greek" (UBS) and lexical quotes above. Any questions ?

On this topic I can literally go pick my scholar and they will have said the greek means whatever I want it to mean.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

So in English and Greek apparently "to cut",and "to be cut off" are synonymous.
So what does that tell you, about 1Corinthians 11:6 "For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."

So it's providing a full range from cut,to her hair cut off, to her hair shaved so what does that tell you? Any of the above is a shame, not one or the other but all.

what does 1 Corinthians 11:15 say the covering is? "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."
Because once again the word translated "for" comes from the Greek Word "anti" or "ἀντί". Meaning "for, instead of, in place of (something)."

And there you have it, Uncut Hair!

I'm still waiting on any quotes that clearly show the uncut hair you say it speaks of. I'll probably be waiting all eternity...

Pick any translation out there and show me uncut hair specifically mentioned in any of these verses.