I have Left the UPC Church

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Michlow

Questioning it? yes. Ready to throw it out the window like garbage? no.

Even if I get to the point where I think maybe it doesn't HAVE to be done "our" way, I don't think I will ever stop thinking that it is the BEST way.

BTW, questioning doesn't mean giving up on. I questioned standards for years before I gave up on them. And in the course of questioning, I studied those on both sides of the issue. Not just one. I would have no problem with an apostolic house church, with certain exceptions of course, (Like if it was ultra con! )

if my memory serves me correct... it would be no seperation between lay-ministry (saints) and ministry (house pastor/moderator)... probably a few other points, as well.... sorry Michlow, even house churches have leadership that is both accountable and holds others accountable....

the only real place where there is equal authority accross the board is perhaps a simple, Bible study group.... and even then someone most likely plans it and moderates it.... acting as the most simple authority figure....

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

if my memory serves me correct... it would be no seperation between lay-ministry (saints) and ministry (house pastor/moderator)... probably a few other points, as well.... sorry Michlow, even house churches have leadership that is both accountable and holds others accountable....

the only real place where there is equal authority accross the board is perhaps a simple, Bible study group.... and even then someone most likely plans it and moderates it.... acting as the most simple authority figure....

It's OK, cause I actually have a "pastor" who holds me accountable. I am sure that you wouldn't approve of my choice though

[sola gratia]

Michlow - dont dwell in fear... stay in faith... trust and reliance - that He who began a good work in you will complete it....

There are some great people who love God, in the body of Christ... find them...love them, let them love you, and fellowship under the banner of Jesus Christ!

Its worth it

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

if my memory serves me correct... it would be no seperation between lay-ministry (saints) and ministry (house pastor/moderator)... probably a few other points, as well.... sorry Michlow, even house churches have leadership that is both accountable and holds others accountable....

the only real place where there is equal authority accross the board is perhaps a simple, Bible study group.... and even then someone most likely plans it and moderates it.... acting as the most simple authority figure....

Also, their is a difference in my mind between administrative leadership and spiritual leadership. So someone "running" a house church is understandably necessary. I do not have a problem with leadership, and much as I have issues with the way that spiritual authority is taught/addressed in the UPC (as I experienced it).

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Michlow

It's OK, cause I actually have a "pastor" who holds me accountable. I am sure that you wouldn't approve of my choice though

ummmm, Michlow you can't "pastor" yourself because true accountability would be overruled by your personal justification.... its a conflict of interest....

for example, if the "Michlow the pastor" says "why didn't you pray at all this week?" then "Michlow the saint" could say "Because I've been busy with work and errands and other unexpected events".... then with "Michlow the saint" and "Michlow the pastor" having an equal voices.... justification would always supercede accountability....

can't be done Michlow.... don't think that you will succeed where others have failed....

Originally Posted by Malvaro

ummmm, Michlow you can't "pastor" yourself because true accountability would be overruled by your personal justification.... its a conflict of interest....

for example, if the "Michlow the pastor" says "why didn't you pray at all this week?" the "Michlow the saint" could say "Because I've been busy with work and errands and other unexpected events".... then with "Michlow the saint" and "Michlow the pastor" having an equal voices.... thus justification would always supercede accountability....

can't be done Michlow.... don't think that you will succeed where others have failed....

She didn't say it was herself, Malvie...

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

ummmm, Michlow you can't "pastor" yourself because true accountability would be overruled by your personal justification.... its a conflict of interest....

for example, if the "Michlow the pastor" says "why didn't you pray at all this week?" then "Michlow the saint" could say "Because I've been busy with work and errands and other unexpected events".... then with "Michlow the saint" and "Michlow the pastor" having an equal voices.... justification would always supercede accountability....

can't be done Michlow.... don't think that you will succeed where others have failed....

Originally Posted by Ronzo

She didn't say it was herself, Malvie...

Um....like Ron says, I never said it was myself. In fact, it is a fellow poster with experience in the ministry.

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Ronzo

She didn't say it was herself, Malvie...

no Gonzo, but it certainly has been implied in previous posts that she is currently accountable only to herself....

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

no Gonzo, but it certainly has been implied in previous posts that she is currently accountable only to herself....

Oh but see....I saw the error of my ways and am now "under authority"

[BreakingFree]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

Bro Epley you sir in all kindness, and all respect... why do you have to act arrogant, and self righteous? I dont understand that....

I must confess your posts make me glad I dropped what I have dropped... Your fear based christianty has no place in faith filled people, who accept the work of the cross as thier atonement and the blood of Christ as their cleansing!

It has to be ignorance. Until he's experienced it, he won't know. That's why people should never give advice unless they've been there. . . . . at least, not the self righteous, I-know-all kind of advice. What's that saying, what goes around . . . . .