How close should a pastor get to the members?

[Indy]

So I'm being accused of having a history and insulting you? Im only responding to you in kind. We don't have a history and and if you call that an insult you have obviosuly not been in the ministry very long.

You seem to me to be very good at doing the same thing you accuse others but can't see it. That is the reason for my comment. I ahve lurked here and the other fourm and have posted in frequently so I'm not without a clue.

[2020Vision]

What treasures are you hunting for?

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Prax,

I think Pastors put themselves in the position to be the all knowing and only counsel. I think many times they think more highly of themselves than is their calling. They are not the voice of God but merely fallible men who are called to teach, preach, and exhort. Many times there is too much enmeshment of the Pastor/leadership into the private affairs of the church people. It is comparable to spiritual incest.

JMHO,
Rhoni

P.S. I do agree with your post. Thank you.

"Spiritual Incest" is a legitimate and clearly defined term under Ecclesiastical Law.

Spiritual incest. (Eccl. Law)

(a) The crime of cohabitation committed between persons who have a spiritual alliance by means of baptism or confirmation.

(b) The act of a vicar, or other beneficiary, who holds two benefices, the one depending on the collation of the other.

Clearly the term "spiritual incest" does not apply to the example in the quoted post, and to use the term, which clearly has sexual overtones, in the context of a post criticizing pastors is repugnant.

[Indy]

Originally Posted by Amos

We must have some history I don't know about or something, since you really like to come out of the woodwork and try to aggravate me when I post here.

It would enhance our communication if you would read what I say and not twist it.

I didn't say those kind didn't exist; i said they were not the norm.

Originally Posted by Amos

By the way, I'll leave the insults to you, sand and all.

Originally Posted by 2020Vision

What treasures are you hunting for?

Truth

[Bishop1]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I've heard it said for decades (in certain orgs) that a pastor should not get close to the "saints."
I've been around long enough

ALWAYS REMAIN CLOSE ENOUGH

TO QUICKLY LAY HANDS ON THEM !

IMHO

[Amos]

Originally Posted by Indy

So I'm being accused of having a history and insulting you? Im only responding to you in kind. We don't have a history and and if you call that an insult you have obviosuly not been in the ministry very long.

You seem to me to be very good at doing the same thing you accuse others but can't see it. That is the reason for my comment. I ahve lurked here and the other fourm and have posted in frequently so I'm not without a clue.

Since a couple of times lately you have come out of the woodwork with adversarial replies to me, it made me wonder if we have ever locked horns elsewhere under another name, since your words seemed to have a bit of a personal tone.

As for the insult about having my head in the sand, I am not offended, but I think you are trying to be mildly insulting. That is fine.

If you have some kind of a problem with me, I would prefer that you either shoot straight with me right here, or send me a PM so we can get it settled.

Otherwise, I think I will just decline responding to you from here on.

Be blessed.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Is your Pastor perfect? Does he/she have family problems or past issues that he/she has to deal with? Should they be allowed to Pastor since they have "issues".

The mark of any good leader/counselor is knowing your biases and getting supervision if/when a client's issues touch/affect yours.

Don't make assumptions about me and my profession.

Blessings, Rhoni

I didn't actually make any assumptions about your profession. I asked you a question about your profession. Asking for information is nearly the complete opposite of making an assumption.

Of course my pastor isn't perfect. However, I would say that in his areas of weakness, he is the least qualified to give advice to others. I'm sure he asks God for wisdom so he can advise others, even if he is lacking in the same area. However, I think that's why ministers are supposed to have a good reputation--because people won't listen if they think you don't live something yourself.

My question was, basically, do you know your biases, and do you allow it to affect your counseling? It wasn't an accusation, Rhoni. It was a question. For the same reason you wouldn't trust many men or pastors, I wouldn't trust a counselor [who couldn't remain unbiased].

[mizpeh]

Rhoni wrote:

I think Pastors put themselves in the position to be the all knowing and only counsel. I think many times they think more highly of themselves than is their calling. They are not the voice of God but merely fallible men who are called to teach, preach, and exhort. Many times there is too much enmeshment of the Pastor/leadership into the private affairs of the church people. It is comparable to spiritual incest.

Theology takes an even dimmer view of the House Church Movement. Now, understand, the House Church Movement is not made up of churches that just happen to begin in a home and then expand their ministry to a larger facility. There are thousands of churches that began in someone’s living room and then as God blessed, expanded to a dedicated building or buildings. These are churches that have no intention ever of growing, expanding or reaching out to their community. They believe that it is God’s plan for them to meet together in a small group, study the Bible and pray. Few, if any, grow, expand, multiply and reproduce. In a very honest evaluation – they are the spiritual equivalent to incest. The only interaction occurs within the “family”. http://www.christianworldviewnetwork...436/Bob_Burney

Is this what you mean by spiritual incest, Rhoni?

If so, I've fellowshipped in three different UPC congregations in different states and countries and NEVER found this to be the case. I think your use of "many times" is not truly representative of the UPC as a whole.

[Amos]

A little time with the search engine was quite revelatory.

I did a little search on Brother Indy's 70-odd posts, and read all of them.

Interestingly enough, over half of them were either direct responses to me or in conversations where I was involved.

It is obvious that some regular poster has created a username largely for the purpose of taking little snide pot shots at me.

By noting his obvious distaste for JP and by taking note of his ideological hot buttons, as well as a few other characteristic ways of turning a phrase that I recognize, I have pretty well figured out who our hero is.

I guess I ought to be flattered to have my own personal stalker on AFF.

I thought I only seemed to see him post when I was involved, but I didn't realize just how exclusive his posting was until I did a search. He has a few posts in threads I am not involved in, but most of them are to me.

If anyone doubts this, it is easy enough to confirm what I found.

While it really isn't any big deal to me, this poster really has something in his craw. It is obvious.

Bro, for your own peace of mind you need to move on.

I am not "after " you. I am not sure why you continue to stalk me like this...but it isn't healthy. In fact, it's a little weird.

Get some help.

[mizpeh]

Well, you can eliminate DA since he is on his honeymoon without his laptop!