Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[Kae]

Originally Posted by Newman

(and I do believe the women could walk away with their children if they chose to).

Newman you are a very educated and intelligent women. These women have very little education. To leave a situation that these women are in takes knowledge to know how to do it. They have been taught they will go to hell if they leave. They have no other knowledge. They are basically ignorant and helpless. Knowledge is very empowering and that is why they keep them ignorant.

I was a part of a cult once and my greatest sin was I went to the library too much.

[Kae]

Originally Posted by Newman

The bottom line is that I have never seen or heard of taking out a whole community because of child abuse of a few children at the hands of specific individuals. What is going on in your church or neighborhood?

This isn't the first time that this has happened to the FLDS. It is almost like history repeating itself. The Short Creek raid of 1953 resulted in 36 men being arrested and 86 women and 263 children taken into custody. After two years they all went back.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...269050,00.html

This also happened to the twelve tribes when they were accused of abuse and they did find evidence, but were not allowed to pursue it due to the unconstitutional way they did the raid. They rounded up 112 children and took custody. The judge immediately sent them back.

http://upstreamzine.wordpress.com/20...-vermont-cult/

[Newman]

Responding to Nina~

1. I don't know if the fathers raised in this religion are any more culpable than the mothers; although they are more likely to be criminally prosecuted.

However, having said that I would add that I have no reason to believe that this particular group of people has coerced or forced anyone to stay or submit to what they didn't want to.

Authorities came in based on a phone call they could have easily traced to Colorado.

The whole search of the ranch, the people and their DNA along with the seizure of the children is a travesty wrought upon American citizens who were easily marginalized because we don't like their religion and dress code.

Its possible that any DNA evidence obtained will be inadmissable for criminal proceedings because it is the result of a search that should never have been conducted based on hoax phone calls.

2. Texas authorities could have tied the welfare checks (if there actually were welfare checks) to parenting classes that educated the mothers as to what was legally required of them; what options outside the ranch they had; and conducted well children/teenager check ups.

Alternatively, at this junction the group has collectively said they would do whatever they can to get their children back. So same as above even if no welfare checks attached.

Government haters? I hardly think it more than very conservative people who trusted no one that was of the world. Sound familiar?

[Amos]

Sister Newman, you are making a mighty lot of sense.

For what it's worth, we see this thing exactly alike.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Newman

All the interviews I have seen deny that any bride is forced to marry.

WOW. Every single adult is guilty for one pregnant 13 year old? And they who came to Texas when the legal age for marriage was 14 should lose their children forever?

In Texas if you know a child is being abused and don't report it you are likely for prosecution.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

This is a group that is hiding. They built a PRIVATE compound out in the middle of nowhere. You would be hard-pressed to convince me that each and every adult DOESN'T know the exact laws they are trying to work around.

This entire group believes marrying girls at young ages is acceptable. It is their RELIGION. How can you possibly say some are guilty and others aren't? It's taught from the time they are born.

FREEDOM OF RELIGION. You should not be prosecuted for what you believe.

Some parents may have allowed their underage daughters to marry too soon. These specific parents and the adult husband(s) who had sex with minors are the ones that have potentially broken the law; not the entire community.

And here is another problem. They won't choose to. This is their religion. Their belief. They believe this way and they get to go to heaven; they believe any different, and they will go to hell. Where is their choice?

A legal marriage and then spiritual marriages is within American law. How can it not be given all the shacking up and multiple partners going on in the rest of America? The community can modify the age at which spiritual marriages occur without any hell ramifications.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

In Texas if you know a child is being abused and don't report it you are likely for prosecution.

cneasttx- It is a mighty broad statute but actually doesn't have much teeth...

"Mandated Reporting

Texas Family Code 261.101 Persons required to report
A person (everyone) having cause to believe that a child's physical or mental health or welfare has been adversely affected by abuse or neglect by any person shall immediately make a report as provided by this subchapter. This requirement to report under this section applies without exception to an individual whose personal communications may otherwise be privileged, including an attorney, a member of the clergy, a medical practitioner, a social worker, a mental health professional, and an employee of a clinic or health care facility that provides reproductive services. The identity of the reporter is confidential and may only be released by order of court or to law enforcement agency conducting a criminal investigation."

The community would argue that they had no cause to believe a child's physical or mental health or welfare was adversely affected by early marriages.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I realize that this is all speculation on your part, as most of the input on this thread is just speculation on my part as well. We're not there, and we don't have the access to any legal documents. Just what is being reported. I like to think that the info that's being released is fairly accurate, and not too far off the mark. Biased, yes, I'm sure. But I'm more interested in knowing the facts.

The Mrs- Educated speculation on my part given my legal training in juvenile law (although a different state but sharing some federal mandates in common with all states).

I did find and read two of the affidavits presented to the judge and found them lacking specifics; but for the very detailed phone call (which was a hoax but colored everyone's perception of what was going on).

I also saw a juvenile attorney interviewed by Larry King who is defending five of the mothers. She told Larry King that she heard no evidence in court against the mothers she was representing. I would concur based on what I have read so far.

I would also point out that my most recent court case alleged many facts in the petition that could not be proven at the trial. I was the children's attorney and had no bias whatsoever except to protect the best interest of the kids.

I saw a handful of mothers walking out with children. We don't know they were their own.

Excellent point. But I tend to think it more likely than not that mothers are going to try their best to comfort their children when in serious distress.

I saw Nancy Grace talking about this situation when it first happened and she stated, 'If it were ME, and those were MY children that were torn from me, I would be RIGHT THERE next to where they are keeping them. I would be as close to them as physically possible, not back at the Ranch.'

1. She did not know that the mothers were doing exactly as they were instructed so they could get their children back.

2. This possibility likely escaped her thought process because a)she knew of the 16 year old girl's horrible distress and phone call (before it was known to be a hoax) and b) she was unconciously biased by the women's lifestyle and dress. How could they possibly be real mothers?

If I were to put myself in their shoes...I would have to say I would probably have instructions from the leaders to follow in the face of such an event. And I'll bet it would be this:

Give no information.

If I were a part of this group, that knows it's operating around the laws of the land, I would try to be as evasive as possible. I can't admit anything without admitting guilt, so I wouldn't offer up anything at all.

I wouldn't keep accurate birth records that would only give someone else proof in the case of any legal action.

They probably thought this would be a good tactic, only to see it backfire on them and force DNA testing.

Well, maybe except that I would have expected a significant number of mothers to fold as their children were taken away.

Furthermore, if everyone knew they were breaking the law; I think they might have stockpiled guns, built some walls and been prepared for the day they would come to enforce the law. Maybe?

[Newman]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

At this time, there are approximately 50 adults of the 175 that have submitted to the DNA testing ordered by the judge.

If they are innocent, they should all be lining up as quickly as possible.

Why? They have been continually told things that turned out different than originally told. Why trust the system now?

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Not defending either...both are equally offensive...but in the case of this group...men get the welfare checks for the wives... a man with 9 or 10 wives with children might make a good living...

Steve are defending this??

Randy, do you know this to be a fact? I have read most of the posts and they are full of, I hears, it was reported, I've been told. I'd like to hear facts, facts like who told it, who said it, who reported it. Many of you feel the actions of Texas is OK because this is a cult..Don't forget, UPC is often referred to as a cult. Does that make it OK for the State or Federal government steps in and close our churches and takes our children. Someone said the Gov. won't bother us unless we are breaking the law, don't forget, praying at school sport functions and at Graduation ceremonies as well as passing out Bibles in school is against the law. (just saw this one in the St. Louis paper this morning) and the parents in Ca. are not allowed to home school. More things we have always taken for granted as our religious rights are being taken away from us.

If someone abusing children, go after them but not the innocent mothers and children. That's the chicken way out!! If one of you is abusing your child, don't take all our children away.It's dirty pool when this happens because of a false report.

The paper said these children seemed happy, they had in many cases not seen TV. They were very polite. Let's put them in foster homes where they can watch sex and violence on TV, play violent video games and be rebellious like many of our American children. By all means when they become teenagers supply them with condoms, we want them to have a real childhood experience. they can join a few gangs or get into drugs. It is unthinkable to keep our children sheltered. I wonder how many murders, robberies and drunken brawls they had in their compound the past year or more. While we are at it, let's do something about some of the arranged marriages in our country among our third world aliens that are coming here. Let's seperate all those women and children while we are at it.

I'm in a good mood tonight, catch me in a bad mood sometime!! My wife is at a women's meeting tonight with about a thousand other women at our church, maybe she'll pray me through when she comes home.