Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

[Walks_in_islam]

My reply is this. There is justified war and unjustified war. I think you can search history and figure them out. You say conversion by the sword? History does not say that. The Quran states that Jews, Christians, and Sabians (monotheistic religions) were to be protected and enjoy autonomy and this was the case for hundreds of years. Slowly conditions were put on this until today in some countries religions other than Islam are prohibited. Against the words of the Quran.

Originally Posted by BroMatt

I have been thinking and praying about this thread, and my replys here. Though I have indeed "lumped" all Muslims into one box, and indeed violence against the innocent done in the name of Jesus or via Islam, in both cases are evil and very wrong. However...

I have pointed out several times that the prophet of Islam killed and waged war, and the excuses usually involve, "well, it was a different day and age". It was conversion by the sword.

But not conversion to Islam. It was removal of sinful, pagan practices by the sword.

Jesus killed no one, waged no war, and did not advocate violence. He lived in a "different age" also. He advocated conversion by grace and mercy.

If as you say He is God then he certainly judged the Jews for their actions a short time after he was taken into Heaven. He also handily cleaned out the temple and it was not in a non-violent manner either. Mohammed handily cleaned out the Kabaa (Place of Abraham) in Mecca in a similar manner.

When discussing the difference, the following was listed, AS THOUGH justifying the things that the prophet of Islam did.

Just clarifying your "Jesus is God but did not advocate violence as response to paganism"' argument

The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.
Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.
And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."
Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? testing?)
The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.
"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."
Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites
Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah
Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites
Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish
Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites
Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites
Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites
Joshua was a busy man. "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek
Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.
Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.
The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites
Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground
The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon
The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish
The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire
Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

These things were done at God's command centuries before Jesus walked the earth. Are you saying that God told your prophet to kill and wage war?

Something triggered the Prophet to clean out the Place of Abraham and dedicate it to the worship of Abraham's God. If pagan idols were removed and pagan practices were eliminated then from an outcome based analysis it was a good thing.


Ultimately, in that Islam gives no true salvation, no impartation of God's Spirit, there is no chance for the "believer" to receive the strength directly from God to walk out salvation. It is a tragic merry-go-round of works and attempts to justify.

At the end, as per Revelations, we will be judged by our works. I advise care be taken with that works thing. Were the sheep and goats separated by faith wouldn't the book have said so?

The true promises of God lead to a dramatic salvation experience that includes receiving the Holy Ghost into the believer, taking on oneself the name of Jesus Christ in baptism, and repentance that changes the very way someone lives their life.

To reach back into the "Old Testament" to attempt to make that which was old into justification and accusation of that which is new is intellectual dishonesty.

Jesus himself stated he came to fulfill the law, not change it. He probably meant what he said and not what his words were spun into years later didn't he?

The new covenant is established on better promises, and the bible states that clearly. God who does not change did indeed offer us a better deal than the previous one.

Islam did not change, does not change, as they stress to me often in discussions. There was no salvation purchased by the blood of a saviour in the Koran, and instead there is only laws, rules, and rituals.

So, while I did indeed put all Muslims into the terrorist "box" which was unfair and I acknowledged my error and apologized. You have placed the Old Testament into the New Testament, thereby blending that which God seperated intentionally, in order to make your argument and justification on behalf of violence while at the same time finding fault that I grouped you in with the worker's of voilence in Islam's current history.

You can't have it both ways. Those that murder today in Islam's name, which I call terrorists, do so following the behaviour that the prophet whom you honor did. How can you justify the prophet murdering others and condemn those that follow his example today? Is what the prophet did evil? I contend that it was, and that he was evil, and that which he produced is also evil.

This is why it is so difficult for those that try to follow him yet desire peace and truth in their hearts to find that peace. It just doesn't add up.

I can understand the difficulty. As always, a pleasure

[Walks_in_islam]

We are not enemies my friend.....

Originally Posted by kenj

And also, by the way, thank you Walks in Islam for your erudition and your patience.

[Walks_in_islam]

Jesus killed no one, waged no war, and did not advocate violence
These (the word violent added) things were done at God's command

Do you declare Jesus to be God or not? If so, it is you my friend who cannot have it both ways.

[BroMatt]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Jesus killed no one, waged no war, and did not advocate violence
These (the word violent added) things were done at God's command

Do you declare Jesus to be God or not? If so, it is you my friend who cannot have it both ways.

Certainly Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I'll say this, you do provide for interesting discussions.

It is also true that the sheep and the goats were divided based on what they did and did not do in Matthew chapter 25. However, neither group was expected to kill anyone on God's behalf.

The difference between the old and new testament is quite large, and the behavior that is required in the new testament is non violent. As for Jesus throwing over the money changer's tables, that, while being dramatic, was not killing anyone, and my point is that the new testament does not authorize the killing of anyone by any Christian. The new agreement is based on better promises.

As always, it is a pleasure visiting with you.

[Walks_in_islam]

God has not changed my friend. There is still necessity to remove extreme evil from the world even at the cost of removing those who practice and condone it.

By the time of Mohammed there was no church and no pathway to God. God supplied a pathway through prayer, fasting, and devotion to Him demonstrated to Him every single day of a Muslim's life.

The differences in the practices under the guise of "God's will" are non-existent between the New Testament and Old Testament. The church is not peaceful because of the Bible. The church is peaceful because they were limited from their persecutions of non-believers in our Bill of Rights - which was NOT written to protect the church but to protect those who persecuted others in the name of the church.

It will not be accepted that you pen credit for these protections to "christianity" or "christians". Our country was founded by people who had enough of persecution, torture, and cruelty under the guise of "christianity" and in penning those words the people were saved from christianity, not BY christianity. It would be good to remember this.

The foundations of Islam are in monotheism and those who followed God and only God are specifically outlined for all rights and protections. It is unfortunate that Islam is following the way of christianity which is probably why all propecies say that eventually God will have enough and clear the world and start over with those who practiced faithful devotion to Him.

Originally Posted by BroMatt

Certainly Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I'll say this, you do provide for interesting discussions.

It is also true that the sheep and the goats were divided based on what they did and did not do in Matthew chapter 25. However, neither group was expected to kill anyone on God's behalf.

The difference between the old and new testament is quite large, and the behavior that is required in the new testament is non violent. As for Jesus throwing over the money changer's tables, that, while being dramatic, was not killing anyone, and my point is that the new testament does not authorize the killing of anyone by any Christian. The new agreement is based on better promises.

As always, it is a pleasure visiting with you.

[BroMatt]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

God has not changed my friend. There is still necessity to remove extreme evil from the world even at the cost of removing those who practice and condone it.

By the time of Mohammed there was no church and no pathway to God. God supplied a pathway through prayer, fasting, and devotion to Him demonstrated to Him every single day of a Muslim's life.

The differences in the practices under the guise of "God's will" are non-existent between the New Testament and Old Testament. The church is not peaceful because of the Bible. The church is peaceful because they were limited from their persecutions of non-believers in our Bill of Rights - which was NOT written to protect the church but to protect those who persecuted others in the name of the church.

It will not be accepted that you pen credit for these protections to "christianity" or "christians". Our country was founded by people who had enough of persecution, torture, and cruelty under the guise of "christianity" and in penning those words the people were saved from christianity, not BY christianity. It would be good to remember this.

The foundations of Islam are in monotheism and those who followed God and only God are specifically outlined for all rights and protections. It is unfortunate that Islam is following the way of christianity which is probably why all propecies say that eventually God will have enough and clear the world and start over with those who practiced faithful devotion to Him.

The church was about 500 years old when he was born, there was then and still is now a pathway to God, Jesus Christ, and He remains the only pathway to God. Mohammed tragically is in hell now, where he has been since his death, and millions (perhaps over a billion) are being deceived into hell following the lies he told and the path he walked.

Again, it is intellectually dishonest to try to change history to suit your religious beliefs.

I want to stress to you, that if you do not repent you will one day join him in hell, and I really don't want that to happen to anyone, and I don't want that to happen to you.

[onefaith2]

Its amazing to me that Muslim doctrine tries to say the teachings today of Jesus were not his and were misconstrued. They have no other texts of Jesus. No other writings exist than those of the Christians who followed Him. Its very arrogant in my opinion to say all the writings of Jesus' teachings are incorrect and inconsistent with what he taught. The problem arises in this view that there is no way to know what he taught, if in fact the Bible is a fallacy. That gives no power to God to preserve His Word and Jesus was so important in history, that his words would have been preserved in the same manner as the prophets who lived before Him.

[kenj]

Originally Posted by BroMatt

Mohammed tragically is in hell now, where he has been since his death...

Again, it is intellectually dishonest to try to change history to suit your religious beliefs.

Sorry, but at least for me, as a Christan, I find statements like this one about Mohammed embarrassing and offensive and demeaning to Christ -how is it "intellectually honest" to make such a statement? Did this person have a two way plane ticket to hell and ran into Mohammed there? Do Muslims ever say anything even remotely similar about Christ?

Doesn't Christianity have enough hell-bound hypocrites speaking in its name on television and in churches and in politics all over the world that should be cleaned out of its own house first before going after the head of any other religion?

[BroMatt]

Originally Posted by kenj

Sorry, but at least for me, as a Christan, I find statements like this one about Mohammed embarrassing and offensive and demeaning to Christ -how is it "intellectually honest" to make such a statement? Did this person have a two way plane ticket to hell and ran into Mohammed there? Do Muslims ever say anything even remotely similar about Christ?

Doesn't Christianity have enough hell-bound hypocrites speaking in its name on television and in churches and in politics all over the world that should be cleaned out of its own house first before going after the head of any other religion?

The man murdered, taught others to murder, created a religion that promotes murder to this very day, and NO ONE gets into heaven unless they go via Jesus Christ, IE, he is in hell, and so are those that reject Jesus Christ from every walk of life.

I don't take what Muslims say about Jesus as being valid in any way. However, Jesus did speak of hell, and of those that were children of hell.

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matt 23:32-33 (KJV)

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14-15 (KJV)

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15 (KJV)

If I don't call it as the truth says it is, I am not being truthful nor can a person know the danger of hell that they face, unless they are told. I don't want anyone in hell, but people go there daily.

Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isaiah 5:14 (KJV)

By the way, as a Christian, you didn't know that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6 (KJV)

How many men come to the Father without Jesus? NONE

[Walks_in_islam]

No Muslim would ever pen or claim that the teachings of Jesus were not His. Not one Muslim would ever pen or claim that Jesus will not return and rule the earth one day.

Few Muslims would accept that the teachings of the church today are the teachings of Jesus.

You reference the words of Jesus to the religious leaders of his day as somehow related to Islam? They were not. They were directed to those who profited from the temple, who enforced the Law of Moses in word but not practice, who practiced in action loudly and publicly and through words what was not in their hearts.

How many of your own leaders do the same? How many of your churches are centers of personal profit as the temple in Jerusalem became before Jesus cleaned it out? How many of your leaders walk through the world with the shoes on their feet and clothes on their back as Jesus sent his desciples to teach?

You say I changed history. What then were the pilgrims doing on those boats? Vacationing? What was the position of those good christian prople in colonial America? Did they ALSO practice cool things like burning people at the stake? Let one of you tell me what the bill of rights meant then and what Jefferson meant by penning "wall of separation between church and state" in his personal writings.