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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #511  
Old 08-09-2008, 01:06 PM
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TK Burk TK Burk is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

.::BUMP::.

Here is what was ACTUALLY asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Burk View Post
Here’s one for all you ‘it’s-not-prohibited-in-the-New-Testament-so-it’s-not-sin’ folk; using the same line of reasoning you’re using for polygamy, please explain how we should view the following Old Testament Laws:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21: The responsibility to stone to death a rebellious child
• Nowhere in the entire Bible is this law ever said to have been obeyed by a child’s parents. I wonder why?

Deuteronomy 13:6-10: The responsibility to stone to death your family or close friend if they say something that might lead you to backslide
• Talk about watching what you say!

Deuteronomy 25:5-9: The responsibility to marry and bare children with a widowed sister-in-law
• This one would definitely make the family reunions more interesting….

Nowhere are these specifically said to be prohibited in the New Testament. Consequently, can (or maybe, should) a person still do them? Are they sinning if they do? What do you say?
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The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
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  #512  
Old 08-09-2008, 01:17 PM
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Dora Dora is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

It's interesting to me how guys will bend over backwards to prove that polygamy is "cool" Christian behavior, but won't do the research to prove otherwise. Just as we KNOW that slavery goes against biblical principles since it does not line up to the teachings of Christ i.e. loving your neighbor as yourself and doing unto others as you would have done to you, likewise we must conclude that objectifying women as polygamy inevitable does is incomprehensible behavior if we are pressing toward the mark to become more Christ-like.
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  #513  
Old 08-09-2008, 01:30 PM
HappyTown HappyTown is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

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Originally Posted by TK Burk View Post
What? So there you go; just go with whatever feels right to you. Brother, you REALLY need to study what the Bible says rather than what you think....

I never said it was right to do whatever I think, you asked I gave you scripture, I gave my opinion, it's not my place to tell you anything, your more then able to study yourself approved. I find it ironic when people want others input into matter then turn around and complain or accuse them of not study if it does not line up with their so-called ideal of truth. The fact you are so bent on what you already think why ask others???? If your not open to another way or thoughts on the matter.

Quote:
Who cares what CULTURES practice? Where talking about what's allowed for CHRISTIANS.
At one time CHRISTIANS stone people to death some places it's still practice as a GODLY LAW!

Quote:
So killing children, spouses, and friends is acceptable practice for a Christian?? Are you for real?
No I didn't say that, the bible does, the bible also allows rape and murder, no I don't feel it's rights, yet it's in there. We are blessed we live in a country were we go to court before a judge and jury, not stoning as once was held as law.


Quote:
You NEVER answered what I asked. Try going back and rereading what I actually posted....
No answer will do, why do you care what I think only you can decide what you'll follow or practices. The bible say what it say! Do I agree with it??? No but I can walk away and not partake in it. Freedom of choice Jesus gave it to all, you can follow the law or you can follow after grace!
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  #514  
Old 08-09-2008, 01:35 PM
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TK Burk TK Burk is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dora View Post
It's interesting to me how guys will bend over backwards to prove that polygamy is "cool" Christian behavior, but won't do the research to prove otherwise. Just as we KNOW that slavery goes against biblical principles since it does not line up to the teachings of Christ i.e. loving your neighbor as yourself and doing unto others as you would have done to you, likewise we must conclude that objectifying women as polygamy inevitable does is incomprehensible behavior if we are pressing toward the mark to become more Christ-like.
You are exactly right!

The Old Testament was the servant that lead man to the true teacher of God's Word, Jesus Christ.

I'm amazed that this is not more easily seen in this discussion.
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
 -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03

www.tkburk.com
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  #515  
Old 08-09-2008, 01:40 PM
HappyTown HappyTown is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dora View Post
It's interesting to me how guys will bend over backwards to prove that polygamy is "cool" Christian behavior, but won't do the research to prove otherwise. Just as we KNOW that slavery goes against biblical principles since it does not line up to the teachings of Christ i.e. loving your neighbor as yourself and doing unto others as you would have done to you, likewise we must conclude that objectifying women as polygamy inevitable does is incomprehensible behavior if we are pressing toward the mark to become more Christ-like.

Agree!

It's on the same lines as OT Law: Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear men's clothing. People will take just that one part yet reject the rest of the laws that passage entails . Gods word is very clear if you live by the law you must obey all of it and be judge according to those laws, no picking or chosen," MUST OBEY ALL OF THE LAWS". I rather follow after grace (Jesus).
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  #516  
Old 08-09-2008, 03:08 PM
Pastor DTSalaz Pastor DTSalaz is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn View Post
I can show you several quotes where you have equated it to sin.. you have said it is WRONG..... you have said is unthinkable to you that God is against it in the NT.... care to give me another meaning of SIN?

The argument here is that if you say Polygamy is WRONG because it wasn't so from the beginning then you must use the same textual argument for Divorce or either leave both of then alone....

Due to the progressive revelation of God we always interpret the old testament in the light of the new. It is all the Word of God. Jesus revealed Gods original intent as we read in Matthew 19

Mat 19:3 And the Pharisees came to Him, tempting Him and saying to Him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

You see the Pharisees, as we, are always trying to look for loopholes around Gods intended purpose. Men were divorcing their wives just for not pleasing them in any and every way. Don't like the way you cook dinner. They asked is it lawful (or is it sin) for A MAN to put away HIS WIFE. One man and ONE WIFE not wives. This does not that this was not the case but it is not the meaning of the Question. There were two schools of thought at the time that of Shammai and that of Hillel and they were trying to trap him into siding with one or the other.

Mat 19:4 And He answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female",

Not falling their trap he goes to what he as God told Moses to write in the Pentateuch. Once again Jesus points out male and female, not males and females. It was he who made them so he lets them know the original intention. It is through mans corruption that that original intention was distorted.

Mat 19:5 and said, For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh?

The husband and wife should be so put together in every way that it is like they are glued together. If you take one away from the other it will destroy both of them as they are now considered one flesh. You will have to tear me apart and in doing so it will destroy part of both of me and my wife. It is not only possible but necessary that a man leave his parents. Though children are from the one flesh they are separate and must leave and cleave. Take note that this is what God told Adam and Eve before there was any other children or marriages. These words were given at the first marriage ceremony.

Mat 19:6 Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.

Here again Jesus did not say; they are no longer three, four, eight, one hundred, or one thousand, he says they are no longer TWO. When the marriage vows are taken it is not man who unites but God so that what God joins together no man, magistrate, government, or even Moses is able to invalidate this union.

Mat 19:7 They said to Him, Why did Moses then command to give a bill of divorce and to put her away?

They understood that it went beyond even what Moses wrote and even invalidated what he wrote. Why then did God allow for a bill of Divorce?

Mat 19:8 He said to them, Because of your hard-heartedness Moses allowed you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so.

God did this because of our hard heartedness. He first began to tolerate the violation of his original intent. Then because God tolerates it, mankind then believes it is permissible. Now because it is permitted we believe this evil is permissible God must set up command to deal with the hard hearts of men. This also is to protect women from the cruelties that may be inflicted upon them by their husbands. Just because God did not condemn this practice of polygamy did not mean that this was his original intention. His mercy and grace covers our multitude of sinful behaviors. Now in the New Testament he gives the way he intended for us to live and now the Apostles carry out Gods original design into the church.

Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is put away commits adultery.


This verse here tells us that young people should not be looking for a girl friend but a wife. A wife is begun before the marriage vows are pronounced. This protects women from being used and discarded. Premarital sex will even cause the one who marries that person to be committing Adultery. The union begins even before sexual union occurs. This is why Jesus can say he that even looks on woman to lust after her is committing Adultery in his heart. Even as Mary was espoused to Joseph. Once a woman is married she cannot commit fornication this is an act of sexual union between unmarried persons and even includes acts of homosexuality and beastiality. This putting away a wife begins with the covenant that begins before marriage and continues throughout the marital relationship. Adultery is what takes place in breaking the marital covenant.

We are in a covenant relationship with God at repentance but then continue to consummate the vows made at the altar of repentance by agreeing to be married at baptism. This is the public ceremony. The intimacy is actually consummated in union at Holy Ghost infilling. This is the completion and we now are one with the Lord.

Blessings
Pastor DT Salaz
Fountain of Truth Apostolic Church
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  #517  
Old 08-09-2008, 03:43 PM
Pastor DTSalaz Pastor DTSalaz is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikwebster View Post
That sounds great .. and I agree monogamy is the ideal just looking at history.

But no, when it comes to polygamy Christ never taught against it, it was never forbidden in the NT except for leadership. And the OT took it as a normal part of society.

And it doesnt matter if it conflicts with your personal Jesus or the bible. its there and you gotta love it or not... because its as far away as your nearest bible in the house.

It hurts your conscience because it seems to go against your view of feminine roles in modern society.. i understand that. But once again single females with the ability to work a self determined job, or have financial independence is a fairly new thing that is less than 80 years old out of nearly 7,000 years of human history.

I can understand how this feels like a kick to the teeth for a moderate/liberal lady with a strong self image.. but in this case the scriptures say what they say... and they don't say what you want them to say on this particular issue.


Christ did teach against it.

Mt 19.3-12

BTW 6000 years of human history

Christ elevated women to the place he intended for them since the beginning.

John chapter eight gives us a picture of how men thought they can condemn women for committing adultery but give men a wink. They can condemn one but not bring the other caught in the very act. This shows that Christ tolerated mans sin as an act of mercy and compassion. No one was given what they actually deserved. Mercy= not receiving just penalty for crimes committed. Grace= receiving what we don't deserve.
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  #518  
Old 08-09-2008, 03:46 PM
Rhoni Rhoni is offline
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Lightbulb Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz View Post
Christ did teach against it.

Mt 19.3-12

BTW 6000 years of human history

Christ elevated women to the place he intended for them since the beginning.

John chapter eight gives us a picture of how men thought they can condemn women for committing adultery but give men a wink. They can condemn one but not bring the other caught in the very act. This shows that Christ tolerated mans sin as an act of mercy and compassion. No one was given what they actually deserved. Mercy= not receiving just penalty for crimes committed. Grace= receiving what we don't deserve.
AMEN
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  #519  
Old 08-09-2008, 03:59 PM
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Apocrypha Apocrypha is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz View Post
Christ did teach against it.

Mt 19.3-12

BTW 6000 years of human history

Christ elevated women to the place he intended for them since the beginning.

John chapter eight gives us a picture of how men thought they can condemn women for committing adultery but give men a wink. They can condemn one but not bring the other caught in the very act. This shows that Christ tolerated mans sin as an act of mercy and compassion. No one was given what they actually deserved. Mercy= not receiving just penalty for crimes committed. Grace= receiving what we don't deserve.
Don't see where polygamy is banned by Christ or its declared morally sinful.

Try again

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=19&version=9
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  #520  
Old 08-09-2008, 04:08 PM
Pastor DTSalaz Pastor DTSalaz is offline
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Re: Polygamy in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikwebster View Post
Its generally thought Jesus is talking about a man lusting after a married woman.
Mat 5:27 You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not commit adultery."
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


How many men do we have with only one eye or one hand. This was not to say that men ought to poke out their eyes or cut off their hands. We would have a lot of maimed people in church. lol This is Jesus talking about the heart condition. He can see the heart but man can only see the outward appearance. If men were to do this then we could see the real condition of man.

It is not lusting after a married woman it is women in general. The actual sin begins in the heart. Sin is usually never is instantaneous. There is always a progression. Lust not only has to do with sexual desire but desire in general.

Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death.

The look turns into a thought. The thought is tossed around for a while deciding how we can do this without being caught. We are then seduced by our thoughts and the conception turns into a reality. Sin. Sin is committed and we think we got away with it. Continuous sin becomes habit forming it is fully formed bondage has taken place. You cannot control it, it controls you. The ultimate result is always death. Make wise choices for every action is a seed of thought that has sprouted whether good or wrong. The harvest is coming.

Be blessed

Pastor DT Salaz
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