((((((((((((TULSA BOMBSHELL))))))))) "49 Elders" Explained!! See this LIST

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Jekyll

No need to squirm so loudly.

Really, I MUST learn your avoidance technique. You use it SO conveniently.

Yes, you have me cornered. What to do? Where to go?

BTW,

Before you went on your typical hormonal tirade ... I posted the ethical issues in question ... as it pertains to the AS, Manual and License application ... none of it addressed by you ....

Jekyll, what will it take for you to admit you're obsessed w/ me???

[SDG]

Originally Posted by embonpoint

Sorry, I know you are somewhat obsessed with this new group but there are other things going on.

At worst, with 2 orgs there would be opportunity for at least twice as many churches. Maybe this is the real "Decade to Double."

In reality everyone that is leaving is not going to the new org/fellowship and thus many are seeing opportunities that were not as clear under the old ways.

This does not address your remarks about decentralized power ... how does this structure decentralize power ....

Perhaps you meant that this division ... or fragmentation is somehow meiotic?

This is all KH's vision to "double"????... perhaps he and his BIL are in this together

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Yes, you have me cornered. What to do? Where to go?

BTW,

Before you went on your typical hormonal tirade ... I posted the ethical issues in question ... as it pertains to the AS, Manual and License application ... none of it address by you ....

Jekyll, what will it take for you to admit you're obsessed w/ me???

Again, you give yourself too much credit. You mistake obsession for response to your 12,000+ blatherings.

There are no ethical issues in question. Just because you raise your hand to go to the bathroom doesn't mean that the questions you ask are legitimate.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Jekyll

Again, you give yourself too much credit. You mistake obsession for response to your 12,000+ blatherings.

There are no ethical issues in question. Just because you raise your hand to go to the bathroom doesn't mean that the questions you ask are legitimate.

So you won't answer the data presented or questions asked? You would rather attack the messenger. Typical UC wag the dog tactics.

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

So you won't answer the data presented or questions asked? You would rather attack the messenger. Typical UC wag to dog tactics.

I don't see a legitimate question. Data?? Strange interpretation. Let me know when you run out of paint with your broad brush and your innuendos.

And, that's wag THE dog.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Jekyll

I don't see a legitimate question. Data?? Strange interpretation. Let me know when you run out of paint with your broad brush and your innuendos.

And, that's wag THE dog.

Maybe it's a case of the bird flu or Rocky Mountain fever that afflicts you?

Bump for the Wagger.

Originally Posted by pelathais

It may be a technicality, but the UPCI manual's language does forbid proselytizing other UPC ministers to leave the org.

It does indeed ... especially if still holding credentials. This active recruiting is against the Affirmation Statement and the commitments made by UPCI ministers at licensure.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

2007 Manual Page 159

Position Papers/Ministerial Code of Ethics

ends with...

"Having accepted a pastorate, I will not use my influence to alienate the church or any portion thereof from the fellowship or support of the United Pentecostal Church International. If my convictions change, I will be honorable enough to withdraw."

Questions:

Will ministers withdrawing abide by the code of ethics they ascribed to in the manual when they affirmed their membership with the fellowship?

Will they simply withdraw w/o using their influence to alienate their church which may be UPCI affiliated? Will they not use their influence to alienate the fellowship or support of the UPCI?

Have not their convictions changed in regards to abiding to the current bylaws of the UPCI ... and so the honorable thing is to withdraw without trying to bring others w/ them?

Will their integrity be questioned ???... do they not also fall under question ethically if they break this code of ethics? ... which can seemingly then be adjudicated under resolution 3?

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

First, a church can be informed but before the meeting ... a pastor has a window ... to exert influence as to alienate the church's decision ....

but that's not at the heart of the issue ....

To make this thread about the procedural issue of disaffiliation is to miss it entirely. We are speaking about the ethical commitment ministers and pastors made when they agreed to enter the fellowship.

They agreed not only to the AS and Fundamental doctrine ... but also to the teachings/positions of the fellowship, it's bylaws and guidelines.

Will those leaving or considering leaving act ethically as to the underlined portion below:

2007 Manual Page 159

Position Papers/Ministerial Code of Ethics

ends with...

"Having accepted a pastorate, I will not use my influence to alienate the church or any portion thereof from the fellowship or support of the United Pentecostal Church International. If my convictions change, I will be honorable enough to withdraw."

Were the calls by some ministers to protest/boycott organizational divisions with their offerings unethical as stated in the fellowship's teaching/position for ministerial ethics?

Are those unhappy w/ the "change of direction" of the org and promoting alienation/division violating their commitments made when they applied for their license by not simply and honorably withdrawing?

Yes, tv is a conviction dear to some ... but weren't their commitments not to adversely influence or contend towards the disunity of the faith also convictions?

Have some poisoned their congregations w/ anti-org rhetoric from the pulpit? Is there strong-arming by some being used to influence departure?


These are just some of the ethical commitments made by those applying for license with the fellowship:
[This is a current application for a local license]



Isn't part of the teaching of the church this position paper on ethical and honorable departure?

Are those considering a concerted departure avoiding the breaking of the unity of the Spirit in the assemblies?

Have they refrained from speaking evil, critical and contentious words about anyone in their fellowship? What have they done to work towards peace and harmony? And have they been cooperating w/ all efforts of the organization?

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

This does not address your remarks about decentralize power ... how does this structure decentralize power ....

Perhaps you meant that this division ... or fragmentation is somehow meiotic?

This is all KH's vision to "double"????... perhaps he and his BIL are in this together

Not sure that a discussion of meiosis is appropriate on a family forum.

my comments were not referencing the structure of the new group but the fact that the old was losing some power thus giving some validity to the meiotic analogy. Within the old structure I would be suprised if it did not become, at least for a while, more concentrated than ever.

Now that we have figured out that this is all just a conspiracy between KH and NW to double OP churches I guess we can all go to bed and rest easy tonight.

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Maybe it's a case of the bird flu or Rocky Mountain fever that afflicts you?

Bump for the Wagger.

Originally Posted by Jekyll

Who's asking who to leave?

Bump for those who-want-to-put-words-in-preachers'-mouths

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Jekyll

Bump for those who-want-to-put-words-in-preachers'-mouths

I'll take this as you believing in situational ethics ... the ends justifies the means .... victimization, rationalization, etc. ..... since you fail to answer.

Good job, side stepping tonite .... I've taught you well, Grasshopper.

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I'll take this as you believing in situational ethics ... the ends justifies the means .... victimization, rationalization, etc. ..... since you fail to answer.

Good job, side stepping tonite .... I've taught well, Grasshopper.

Take it however you want.

Yes, you may leave the classroom.