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  #511  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:13 PM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
The Greek says let it grow. The Latin says let it grow. I deduce that English is a language that no one ever dreamed it would be used to interpret an ancient document. Long can't be long without a short to gauge it by. There is no long without its opposite, therefore what on earth is long, if you have no baseline. Seriously, if a guy has hair to the middle of his back, and the woman has it to her waist he has short hair compared to her. That is the point, that is the logical outcome of shredding one chapter of the Bible. It all comes down to what on earth is long? Locust have teeth like lions? Well teeth of lions must be compared with other teeth. So, I don't argue for an hour how the lion's teeth are white. I cut to the skinny answer and say, the lions teeth are sharp fanged jaws. Now, the locust have hair like women. So, everyone stands up and shouts...long! Longer than what? Longer than the lion's hair? Hair like women denoted something particular to ONLY women. The Diaspora Judeans wore their hair like every other Roman. The Judean who lived in Jerusalem polled his hair. Which looked like a bowl cut. So, long would only be just a little lower than her neck? Just a wee bit ridiculous? I would say so.

Everything points to a female not cutting her hair. The guys wore it super short, and the women let their hair flow down their body to where (if it was black) looked like a flock of goats running down a hill side Song of Solomon 4:1

Females just allowed it to grow, whatever the length to finally came to for whatever reason it was considered long. Because the guys hair was super short.
*Wowsie - excellent!
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  #512  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:58 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
*Ummm, not a single thing. How weird.




*Umm, okay - still refuse to see the beam in your own eye. Why am I not surprised ?



*It is the most obvious and logical conclusion - as others have also stated on this thread.



*Yes, abrasive styles such as your posting in all CAPS w. exclamation points, ridiculing YouTube clips - then silly attempts to paint me as the bad guy . Silly rabbit.

*Save your Freudian analyses for yourself.
lol
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  #513  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:05 PM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
lol
*I will just point out once again - in all sincerity - that you have presented the best case I have ever read for your side of the debate regarding the verb "shorn." I do not agree, but, I do honestly appreciate your points, research skills, etc. This is what true research should look like.

*And, God knows that I do calmly consider your points in the privacy of my heart. I sincerely disagree for the reasons stated above (and many others that we have not really touched), but I do genuinely appreciate being challenged academically (as anyone who really knows me will tell you).

*God bless.
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Last edited by rdp; 07-11-2018 at 11:59 PM.
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  #514  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:48 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
The Greek says let it grow. The Latin says let it grow. I deduce that English is a language that no one ever dreamed it would be used to interpret an ancient document. Long can't be long without a short to gauge it by. There is no long without its opposite, therefore what on earth is long, if you have no baseline. Seriously, if a guy has hair to the middle of his back, and the woman has it to her waist he has short hair compared to her. That is the point, that is the logical outcome of shredding one chapter of the Bible. It all comes down to what on earth is long? Locust have teeth like lions? Well teeth of lions must be compared with other teeth. So, I don't argue for an hour how the lion's teeth are white. I cut to the skinny answer and say, the lions teeth are sharp fanged jaws. Now, the locust have hair like women. So, everyone stands up and shouts...long! Longer than what? Longer than the lion's hair? Hair like women denoted something particular to ONLY women. The Diaspora Judeans wore their hair like every other Roman. The Judean who lived in Jerusalem polled his hair. Which looked like a bowl cut. So, long would only be just a little lower than her neck? Just a wee bit ridiculous? I would say so.

Everything points to a female not cutting her hair. The guys wore it super short, and the women let their hair flow down their body to where (if it was black) looked like a flock of goats running down a hill side Song of Solomon 4:1

Females just allowed it to grow, whatever the length to finally came to for whatever reason it was considered long. Because the guys hair was super short.
I have a suspicion the English readers of the Bible in the 17th century could read "long hair" and were not confounded and at a loss as to whether or not any particular man or woman had "long hair". I also suspect everyone and their mother (especially their mother) could know if a guy's hair was long or not without reference to any particular mark on a ruler.

Everyone except perhaps us Pentecostals, in this modern age, it seems?
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  #515  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:56 PM
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Well, it was a good thread.

Kudos to brother Costeon and brother Perkins. I enjoyed reading the lexigraphical information. It has helped to clarify my understanding of people's positions.

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  #516  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:58 PM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Well, it was a good thread.

Kudos to brother Costeon and brother Perkins. I enjoyed reading the lexigraphical information. It has helped to clarify my understanding of people's positions.

*Sincerely appreciate your points also.

*Blessings.
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  #517  
Old 07-12-2018, 05:54 AM
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
*I will just point out once again - in all sincerity - that you have presented the best case I have ever read for your side of the debate regarding the verb "shorn." I do not agree, but, I do honestly appreciate your points, research skills, etc. This is what true research should look like.

*And, God knows that I do calmly consider your points in the privacy of my heart. I sincerely disagree for the reasons stated above (and many others that we have not really touched), but I do genuinely appreciate being challenged academically (as anyone who really knows me will tell you).

*God bless.
Pretty smart for a Jarhead
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  #518  
Old 07-12-2018, 06:51 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I have a suspicion the English readers of the Bible in the 17th century could read "long hair" and were not confounded and at a loss as to whether or not any particular man or woman had "long hair". I also suspect everyone and their mother (especially their mother) could know if a guy's hair was long or not without reference to any particular mark on a ruler.

Everyone except perhaps us Pentecostals, in this modern age, it seems?
Amen

I was hardcore KJV only, until I started Bible studying with the Turkish, Arabic French, Creole, Portuguese, and Spanish speakers. I always make them read out of their own translation. Yet, when reading with other KJVists they didn't understand 17th century English. The word "world" has I think at least 12 definitions in 17th Century English. As Long in the Websters Dictionary 1828.
So, yes, if thee wouldest have long hair, thou mother would knowest.


Long
LONG, adjective [Latin longus.]

1. Extended; drawn out in a line, or in the direction of length; opposed to short, and contradistinguished from broad or wide. long is a relative term; for a thing may be long in respect to one thing, and short with respect to another. We apply long to things greatly extended, and to things which exceed the common measure. we say, a long way, a long distance, a long line, and long hair, long arms. By the latter terms, we mean hair and arms exceeding the usual length.

2. Drawn out or extended in time; as a long time; a long period of time; a long while; a long series of events; a long sickness or confinement; a long session; a long debate.

3. Extended to any certain measure expressed; as a span long; a yard long; a mile long that is, extended to the measure of a mile, etc.

4. Dilatory; continuing for an extended time.

5. Tedious; continued to a great length.

A tale should never be too long

6. Continued in a series to a great extent; as a long succession of princes; a long line of ancestors.

7. Continued in sound; protracted; as a long note; a long syllable.

8. Continued; lingering or longing.

Praying for him, and casting a long look that way, he saw the galley leave the pursuit.

9. Extensive; extending far in prospect or into futurity.

The perennial existence of bodies corporate and their fortunes, are things particularly suited to a man who has long views.

LONG home, the grave or death. Ecclesiastes 12:5.

LONG, noun Formerly, a musical note equal to two breves. obsolete

LONG, adverb

1. To a great extent in space; as a long extended line.

2. To a great extent in time; as, they that tarry long at the wine. Proverbs 23:17.

When the trumpet soundeth long Exodus 19:13.

So in composition we say, long-expected, long-forgot.

3. At a point of duration far distant, either prior or posterior; as not long before; not long after; long before the foundation of Rome; long after the conquest of Gaul by Julius Cesar.

4. Through the whole extent or duration of.

The God who fed me all my life long to this day. Genesis 48:15.

The bird of dawning singeth all night long

LONG, adverb

By means of; by the fault of; owing to. obsolete

Mistress, all this evil is long of you.

LONG, verb transitive To belong. [Not used.]

LONG, verb intransitive

1. To desire earnestly or eagerly.

I long to see you. Romans 1:11.

I have longed after thy precepts. Psalms 119:40.

I have longed for thy salvation. Psalms 119:40.

2. To have a preternatural craving appetite; as a longing woman.

3. To have an eager appetite; as, to long for fruit.
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  #519  
Old 07-12-2018, 08:25 AM
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Pressing-On Pressing-On is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
PO, I am not a Greek/Hebrew scholar any more then you are
You are right, I am not a Greek/Hebrew scholar. Thanks for pointing that out as I brought that up at the beginning of this thread. My point being, if just a regular Joe like you and I are reading the Bible, how would we decipher what is being said in this passage without all the helps that rdp and Costeon post?

I would look it up like you did.
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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Thayer
κομάω
1) to let the hair grow, have long hair
Part of Speech: verb
So, when I look at this, I am wanting that baseline that Benincasa is wanting. When I see "shorn" and "shaven", I feel like I have found it. It is not bald or cropped short.

Again, I am not advocating a women run out and cut her hair. I am not going to do that, because I like my long hair. I also have never attended a UPC church that states the hair issue is a heaven or hell issue, so I am looking at that as well.

Interesting how people see a passage and definitions, but see two different things, i.e. rdp and Costeon for example.

Today, I read a couple of sources that rdp posted last night:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
[COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Georgia"]

*Here, let's all count shall we:

(1) But if she refuses to wear something on her head, let her cut off her hair. But since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or her head shaved, she should wear a covering. (NLT)

(2) Yes, if she refuses to wear a head covering, she should cut off all her hair! A woman should wear something on her head. It is a disgrace for a woman to shave her head or cut her hair. (CEV)

(3) If the woman does not cover her head, she might as well cut her hair. And since it is a shameful thing for a woman to shave her head or cut her hair, she should cover her head. (GNT)

Notice, especially the first two references. They both begin by saying - "If she refuses to wear something on her head, she should CUT OFF ALL her hair. Yet, rdp only highlights the part that reiterates the same thing by only saying, "It is shameful for her to have her hair cut".

LOL! It begins with "cut it all off", but we are not supposed to notice that is the meaning that is intended.

Anyway, I agree with Benincasa, this topic is a hamster wheel even though we have had some very good points made by everyone.
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  #520  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:07 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post

Notice, especially the first two references. They both begin by saying - "If she refuses to wear something on her head, she should CUT OFF ALL her hair. Yet, rdp only highlights the part that reiterates the same thing by only saying, "It is shameful for her to have her hair cut".

LOL! It begins with "cut it all off", but we are not supposed to notice that is the meaning that is intended.

Anyway, I agree with Benincasa, this topic is a hamster wheel even though we have had some very good points made by everyone.
It's funny that you would mention this, because just about 45 minutes ago, I was consulting all the translations again, and I'm not sure how I missed this before, but the CEV does in fact say "cut off her hair" as well. So only one, GNT, says "to cut" in both places keiro appears in 1 Cor 11.6. Two, CEV and NLT, have "cut off" and "cut."
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