For those that left the UPC...

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

The only scripture the NT church possessed was the OT.

When Jesus spoke Matthew 28:19, they knew He was speaking of Isaiah 9:6, among others. If they simply said, Father, son and Holy Ghost, they would only have repeated what Jesus said to do and not obey what He was teaching them. "I and my Father are one."

Jesus taught them from the very scriptures they were familiar with - "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." (Luke 24:27)

That is why Peter could say, "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." (Acts 10:43)

And why Peter could also say, "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (II Peter 3:18)

They studied from what we now call the Old Testament. Those in Thessalonica testify of what they studied and where they got their information to verify the words of the Apostles.

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11)

ILG, when we already know these things, church leadership cannot hurt us. Disappoint, yes, but you should have already know this as you helped pastor a church. I know that was blunt, but it's true.

Yes, you are correct that I already know the arguments. I just disagree with them now. That's all. And saying that knowledge protects us from hurt doesn't make any sense at all. So, I disagree with you there too. The scriptures you provided really don't say anything in defense of what you are trying to back up doctrinally. No need for you to respond unless you just really want to.

[missourimary]

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

It's our heart's response, not the words of a preacher, that this verse refers to. We are baptized into Jesus-again, our response to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, not the words of a preacher. We are baptized in Jesus' name when WE call on His name by responding in faith and obedience. Not when the preacher says certain words. The preacher doesn't have to say anything at all.

Yes, there are other verses. All could mean 'in the authority and power of...", not "with these words:".

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yes, you are correct that I already know the arguments. I just disagree with them now. That's all. And saying that knowledge protects us from hurt doesn't make any sense at all. So, I disagree with you there too. The scriptures you provided really don't say anything in defense of what you are trying to back up doctrinally. No need for you to respond unless you just really want to.

That's right, I forgot you had a different view of the validity of scripture and the Bible overall. I wasn't saying you knew the arguments. It's the fundamental truth of who Jesus was and became that I am talking about here. This is what the Apostles came to know and preach.

I am saying that knowledge keeps us from walking away from fundamental truths even in very hurtful situations and very much so in times of temptation.

Originally Posted by ILG

The scriptures you provided really don't say anything in defense of what you are trying to back up doctrinally. .

Oh, but they really do, but I suppose we are at an impasse. That's okay. Thanks for your response!

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

...when we already know these things, church leadership cannot hurt us. Disappoint, yes... I know that was blunt, but it's true.

I know this was intended for someone else, but I'm in an especially irritable mood today so I'll respond anyway. PO, what you said above is like saying "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me." The thing is, leaders of all sorts can and do hurt people, as well as disappoint them. I have been hurt in church and out of it. But I will never again force myself to stay in a hurtful situation simply because someone tells me it shouldn't hurt.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I am saying that knowledge keeps us from walking away from fundamental truths even in very hurtful situations and very much so in times of temptation.

There are much larger fundamental truths than what words a preacher speaks at baptism. Acts 2:38 isn't the entire foundation of the Bible. It isn't even the pivotal point.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by missourimary

I know this was intended for someone else, but I'm in an especially irritable mood today so I'll respond anyway.

You missed the whole point, and since your mood is precarious, I'll leave you with it.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

That's right, I forgot you had a different view of the validity of scripture and the Bible overall. I wasn't saying you knew the arguments. It's the fundamental truth of who Jesus was and became that I am talking about here. This is what the Apostles came to know and preach.

I am saying that knowledge keeps us from walking away from fundamental truths even in very hurtful situations and very much so in times of temptation.


Oh, but they really do, but I suppose we are at an impasse. That's okay. Thanks for your response!

Yeah, I can see I ticked you off, but I was just giving my opinion. I know to some, that is wrong.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yeah, I can see I ticked you off, but I was just giving my opinion. I know to some, that is wrong.

LOL! That's what I like about you ILG, you state things in as plain a manner as I like to do.

You are right, it did tick me off. And I will tell you why. God help us! LOL!

This was your original statement:

Originally Posted by ILG

Jesus Himself said in the book of Matthew to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. I wonder if Jesus was messed up about His theology when He said that.

That, IMO, was a very astounding thing for me to read you saying.

My scripture references showed that the Apostles, by knowing the scriptures, understood what Jesus was saying in Matthew 28:19.

In Luke 24:45-46, it says that he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. "And he said unto them, Thus it was written...." They had read the scriptures and being familiar with them, Jesus opened their understanding concerning himself.

Now, you've shared your past, knocked the uselessness of the UPC, but all the while, you didn't know and you questioned something as solid as Matthew 28:19, saying that Jesus was possibly "messed up" about His theology. You are purporting that Jesus didn't know what He was about?

You talked about wanting to write a book about your experiences in the UPC, but what I see is that IF you found fault in the UPC, you also were a "weak link" yourself, not knowing the scriptures.

Yes, that is plain, but I wanted to say it. Because that ticks me off. I apologize if this ticks YOU off, but I wanted, I needed to say it nonetheless.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

In Luke 24:45-46, it says that he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. "And he said unto them, Thus it was written...." They had read the scriptures and being familiar with them, Jesus opened their understanding concerning himself.

Now, you've shared your past, knocked the uselessness of the UPC, but all the while, you didn't know and you questioned something as solid as Matthew 28:19, saying that Jesus was possibly "messed up" about His theology. You are purporting that Jesus didn't know what He was about?

You talked about wanting to write a book about your experiences in the UPC, but what I see is that IF you found fault in the UPC, you also were a "weak link" yourself, not knowing the scriptures.

Yes, that is plain, but I wanted to say it. Because that ticks me off. I apologize if this ticks YOU off, but I wanted, I needed to say it nonetheless.

What I said, I said tongue in cheek. Of course, if the Bible is the Word of God, Jesus was NOT wrong in what he said....of course not.

My point is that Jesus was not mixed up. He knew what he was saying. But people nowadays say that if people say the exact same thing Jesus did....baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost....that they are wrong. It was okay for Jesus to say it, but not another.

My issue is that people make this a sticking point....a heaven or hell doctrine. So, people can repent, believe in Christ, be baptized by immersion, receive the Holy Ghost and yet miss heaven on a technicality, meaning the preacher didn't say the word Jesus as someone was baptized.

And that, my friend, I find ridiculous and I wonder why I was ever taken in by it in the first place.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

What I said, I said tongue in cheek. Of course, if the Bible is the Word of God, Jesus was NOT wrong in what he said....of course not.

My point is that Jesus was not mixed up. He knew what he was saying. But people nowadays say that if people say the exact same thing Jesus did....baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost....that they are wrong. It was okay for Jesus to say it, but not another.

My issue is that people make this a sticking point....a heaven or hell doctrine. So, people can repent, believe in Christ, be baptized by immersion, receive the Holy Ghost and yet miss heaven on a technicality, meaning the preacher didn't say the word Jesus as someone was baptized.

And that, my friend, I find ridiculous and I wonder why I was ever taken in by it in the first place.

Okay, your post didn't come across as tongue in cheek, but we as the individual posters are the only ones to know that. So, we hash it out back and forth. LOL!

My husband just said, tongue in cheek, "Maybe we should say Jesus three times." He's using his Hispanic accent. LOL!

Just from my own experience as a new convert, I was waking up one morning and I heard a man's voice say, "Who is the father? Who is the son? Who is the Holy Ghost." A woman's voice responded, " For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Of course, we know that scripture to be Isaiah 9:6. All I know is that God wanted me to understand this.

Being raised Catholic (broken record - lol), I had an awareness and hunger for God. And I know the scripture is true, "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they shall be filled." (Matthew 5:6)

All I can do is teach what I know is truth. If He could reach me, He is also reaching for others. I do believe if someone doesn't understand or get Matthew 28:19, there is something wrong in their theology or teaching.

The Word is very plain about who He is speaking of in Matthew 28:19. We have John 5:43, "I come in my father's name....", John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,..." Well, you know them.

Honestly, I see everything that God has done as being so timely and precise, I'm not sure what He would think about someone not getting Matthew 28:19. I have my opinion, but I really don't know. I think it's the age old question that makes us uncomfortable as a judge, but wanting to stand for truth at the same time. I will add that saying someone is going to hell without a chance to teach them truth shows no patience or love and is just as wrong, IMO.

I always appreciate our conversations, ILG. We always cut to the chase and get into it! No tiptoeing here!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Okay, your post didn't come across as tongue in cheek, but we as the individual posters are the only ones to know that. So, we hash it out back and forth. LOL!

My husband just said, tongue in cheek, "Maybe we should say Jesus three times." He's using his Hispanic accent. LOL!

Just from my own experience as a new convert, I was waking up one morning and I heard a man's voice say, "Who is the father? Who is the son? Who is the Holy Ghost." A woman's voice responded, " For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Of course, we know that scripture to be Isaiah 9:6. All I know is that God wanted me to understand this.

Being raised Catholic (broken record - lol), I had an awareness and hunger for God. And I know the scripture is true, "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they shall be filled." (Matthew 5:6)

All I can do is teach what I know is truth. If He could reach me, He is also reaching for others. I do believe if someone doesn't understand or get Matthew 28:19, there is something wrong in their theology or teaching.

The Word is very plain about who He is speaking of in Matthew 28:19. We have John 5:43, "I come in my father's name....", John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,..." Well, you know them.

Honestly, I see everything that God has done as being so timely and precise, I'm not sure what He would think about someone not getting Matthew 28:19. I have my opinion, but I really don't know. I think it's the age old question that makes us uncomfortable as a judge, but wanting to stand for truth at the same time. I will add that saying someone is going to hell without a chance to teach them truth shows no patience or love and is just as wrong, IMO.

I always appreciate our conversations, ILG. We always cut to the chase and get into it! No tiptoeing here!

Sounds good to me! Tiptoeing takes a lot of time.

If we are going to speak of personal experiences, after I repented, I was baptized "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" and felt wonderfully cleansed. I was told after I started attending a UPC that I needed to be baptized again because it wasn't done right. I felt no conviction, I just did it because my pastor told me to. My husband hadn't been baptized and wanted to be, so my pastor said we'd just baptize me too at the same time. When I was baptized, I felt nothing. My pastor said that was fine and normal but we must believe the Bible over our personal experiences and, with his biblical "expertise" vs my lack of knowledge, convinced me that baptism with the preacher saying the name of Jesus over you was the only way or you were hell bound. This confused me terribly, because if my wonderful experiences with God were misleading me to hell, I couldn't trust my own perceptions. This led me down an incredibly dark path. From the outset, I trusted what I was told more than what I felt, largely because of this. In time after many, many years, I learned that what I think matters and what I feel matters and that God cared about me and would not mislead me.