Timmy Talk - Page 51

Timmy · #**501** 12-02-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by missourimary

No, God did not command Abraham to sin. That's the whole point. He commanded Abraham to start toward an end that would have been sin had it been seen through to the end. Because God knew He would stop the action before the end, though, it had a purpose other than sin.

If you ask your son to hold his hand over a flame to prove the point that fire is hot and shouldn't be played with, but remove his hand before it gets burnt, is that child abuse? No. It wasn't wrong because it was intended to teach, not harm. And when God asked Abraham to offer Isaac, He was also teaching, not harming.

But think of it from Abraham's point of view. God gives the order, "Sacrifice Isaac". Before he started to carry it out (which, as we know, he did), wouldn't Abraham have considered this to be God commanding him to sin?

whoami · #**502** 12-02-2010, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy

But think of it from Abraham's point of view. God gives the order, "Sacrifice Isaac". Before he started to carry it out (which, as we know, he did), wouldn't Abraham have considered this to be God commanding him to sin?

This very thing has always SERIOUSLY bothered me. If God commanded me to sacrifice my child, I would immediately either assume that the command came from an entity that was NOT God, or that God is contradictory and evil. I would never even start toward such an action.

I used to think that in order to believe the Bible I had to believe and apply the whole thing. Now, the only Biblical commandment I concern myself with is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Jesus said that the whole of the law could be wrapped up in this, so I'm counting on that. lol

That does leave a WHOLE lot of things that are condemned elsewhere in the Bible open though, because there are a lot of things that appear to be condemned as an abomination that don't necessarily violate "do unto others". (homosexuality??)

Timmy · #**503** 12-02-2010, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoami

This very thing has always SERIOUSLY bothered me. If God commanded me to sacrifice my child, I would immediately either assume that the command came from an entity that was NOT God, or that God is contradictory and evil. I would never even start toward such an action.

I used to think that in order to believe the Bible I had to believe and apply the whole thing. Now, the only Biblical commandment I concern myself with is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Jesus said that the whole of the law could be wrapped up in this, so I'm counting on that. lol

That does leave a WHOLE lot of things that are condemned elsewhere in the Bible open though, because there are a lot of things that appear to be condemned as an abomination that don't necessarily violate "do unto others". (homosexuality??)

Thanks. Good points.

missourimary · #**504** 12-02-2010, 12:37 PM

I've thought about it from Abraham's view. Isaac's view is the one that bothers me the most. I think I'd have a little trouble trusting my dad or his God after that incident. But still, Abraham didn't sin. I think there are some pieces to the story that aren't included. I'd want to know what Abraham was really thinking, if he ever doubted who he'd heard from, whether he debated following through, or if he truly believed that either God would stop him at the last minute or raise his son back to life.

But still, it was not sin, because the young man wasn't offered as a burnt sacrifice.

Timmy · #**505** 12-02-2010, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by missourimary

I've thought about it from Abraham's view. Isaac's view is the one that bothers me the most. I think I'd have a little trouble trusting my dad or his God after that incident.

Yep.

Quote:

But still, Abraham didn't sin.

Not relevant. In fact, in Abe's case, I can see an argument that he wouldn't have sinned even if God hadn't stopped him. God gave the order, after all, so it would have been in obedience. But the main question is whether that act would have been sin, if God had not given the order. That's why I chose someone else as the subject, in posing the question.

Quote:

I think there are some pieces to the story that aren't included. I'd want to know what Abraham was really thinking, if he ever doubted who he'd heard from, whether he debated following through, or if he truly believed that either God would stop him at the last minute or raise his son back to life.

I'd have to look it up and check (maybe later), but I think we have that in the story. He said God would raise Isaac up, if I remember correctly.

Quote:

But still, it was not sin, because the young man wasn't offered as a burnt sacrifice.

Yes, but that doesn't change anything about the order that was given.

This has come up before, BTW, in this curiously abandoned thread:

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=26605

Timmy · #**506** 12-02-2010, 08:45 PM

Here's another thing to consider from Abe's point of view. These days, if someone thinks God has spoken to them, they are advised to test it against God's word. If it violates scripture, discard it: it wasn't from God. What about Abraham's day? Was that good advice then, too? If so, why didn't Abe discard that command as bogus?

One problem with my logic is that the Ten Commandments had not been given yet. But it seems pretty clear from how God dealt with Cain, over killing his brother, that He didn't want people killing each other.

It seems strange to me that all the people in the OT and NT that heard God talking to them just knew it really was God, somehow. How did they know? How do we know they were right?

Timmy · #**507** 12-03-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy

Here's another thing to consider from Abe's point of view. These days, if someone thinks God has spoken to them, they are advised to test it against God's word. If it violates scripture, discard it: it wasn't from God. What about Abraham's day? Was that good advice then, too? If so, why didn't Abe discard that command as bogus?

One problem with my logic is that the Ten Commandments had not been given yet. But it seems pretty clear from how God dealt with Cain, over killing his brother, that He didn't want people killing each other.

It seems strange to me that all the people in the OT and NT that heard God talking to them just knew it really was God, somehow. How did they know? How do we know they were right?

What, we done already?

Timmy · #**508** 12-13-2010, 08:57 AM

Pop quiz!

Each of the following doctrines is either derived from the Bible, or not. And if the Bible doesn't teach a particular doctrine, where did it come from? Man, of course! So, which of the following are doctrines of man, and which ones are doctrines of the Bible?

1. There is only one true God.

a. Doctrine of man.
b. Doctrine of the Bible.

2. All scripture is profitable for doctrine.

a. Doctrine of man.
b. Doctrine of the Bible.

(So far, pretty easy, huh? But I bet they'll all be easy.

)

3. Eating meat that has been offered to idols is forbidden.

a. Doctrine of man.
b. Doctrine of the Bible.

4. Eating meat that has been offered to idols is not forbidden.

a. Doctrine of man.
b. Doctrine of the Bible.

(Those are easy, too. Aren't they?

OK, here comes a very easy one.)

5. God's Word consists of the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I & II Samuel, I & II Kings, I & II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, I & II Corinthians, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I & II Thessalonians, I & II Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, I & II Peter, I II & III John, Jude, and Revelation.