Show Me the Money

[RandyWayne]

God didn't set up a Christian MLM (multi-level marketing) scheme here for pastors to recruit folks and eat from all the legs he creates in this pyramid....for that, we have Amway.

We have people like Dennis Lee doing that. LOL

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Wrong...there is no such suspicion....the large amount of money (8 million) should not be in anyone's hands for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. That kind of money is to be distributed to take care of the church's functions (among those functions: watching out for the needy, widows, orphans, poor, etc.) not to go into the wallet of any pastor.

God didn't set up a Christian MLM (multi-level marketing) scheme here for pastors to recruit folks and eat from all the legs he creates in this pyramid....for that, we have Amway.

I think the trouble some of us are having is this notion you are expressing.

and I think my personal disconnect is that I have great confidence, that if I were to be in a position where giving $8 million, the church/Pastor would use that money for the real needs of the church and not to enrich the pastor.

the ministry I have in my life is something I am confident of. I feel sorry for those who have not found that.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I think the trouble some of us are having is this notion you are expressing.

and I think my personal disconnect is that I have great confidence, that if I were to be in a position where giving $8 million, the church/Pastor would use that money for the real needs of the church and not to enrich the pastor.

the ministry I have in my life is something I am confident of. I feel sorry for those who have not found that.

Likewise, the ministry I have in my life is something I am confident of....I am not speaking from personal experiences of wrongdoing....I am speaking about a system and how the institution as a whole is mishandling this area...I am quite confident there are many pastors, like MOW, who have learned to set this up right....but there are many that have not. If the matter is dealt with head-on using the Bible as precedent, folks will no longer be able to claim ignorance in this area....awareness is the first step toward restoration.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Likewise, the ministry I have in my life is something I am confident of....I am not speaking from personal experiences of wrongdoing....I am speaking about a system and how the institution as a whole is mishandling this area...I am quite confident there are many pastors, like MOW, who have learned to set this up right....but there are many that have not. If the matter is dealt with head-on using the Bible as precedent, folks will no longer be able to claim ignorance in this area....awareness is the first step toward restoration.

well now we are getting somewhere. you havent seen it but you know it is lurking out there somewhere! come on bro. really? that is what this is all about? you are crusading for what you "know" is out there....somewhere?

I know a lot of pastors. I know of only a few who have ever done wrong where the money was concerned.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Ferd

well now we are getting somewhere. you havent seen it but you know it is lurking out there somewhere! come on bro. really? that is what this is all about? you are crusading for what you "know" is out there....somewhere?

I know a lot of pastors. I know of only a few who have ever done wrong where the money was concerned.

No, I said I am not experiencing it personally....I didn't say I haven't seen it.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

No, I said I am not experiencing it personally....I didn't say I haven't seen it.

Roc, you are a great humanitarian. I apprecate you.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Interesting that it is the Levite mishandling of the tithe that is attributed to the curse ... even in the translations you provided ....

CEV Mal 3:8 You people are robbing me, your God. And, here you are, asking, "How are we robbing you?" You are robbing me of the offerings and of the ten percent that belongs to me.
Mal 3:9 That's why your whole nation is under a curse.

Dan, I have a question for you. Do you believe God blesses those that give tithes to support the ministry? If so, why?

[J-Roc]

Quote from a friend on this topic:

Originally Posted by Elder

It is something like the law of tithing that is taught in almost every Christian church. God's established method for supporting the ministry of the church and the kingdom of God. Sounds good, holy, and very spiritual. It is also totally bogus.



We generally take Mal 3:7-12 as a foundational scripture for the doctrine of tithing. The first thing we have to acknowledge is that this scripture works! It is a wonderful promise of God, if one can believe in and trust in God?s O.T. promises! [Be careful how you answer that question. No matter which way it is answered, there are very serious personal theological and doctrinal consequences.]



So, what is wrong with using this scripture, or any other tithing scripture, to place on the saints of God the spiritual requirement to support the ministry?



The question resolves its self into a simpler question, how many of the 613 O.T. Laws (ordnances) must a Christian obey in order to be found acceptable by God? Or, to be found worthy of God’s blessings and provision? One, ten, a hundred? Which ones? For example Mal 3:7-12 is a general reference to the laws of tithing - all of the laws of tithing. All eight of them!



We have picked out only one tithe law, number 252, To set aside Terumah Gedolah (tithe for the Kohen - Priests) Deut. 18:4, and we have called that good. Those who teach the law of tithing will NOT teach the other seven laws - I would venture to say that they don’t even know what they are! But, like so many folks, our teachers simply pick and choose what they want “the laity” to know and obey. Yet, is there a place for tithing? Yes, there is, but not as it has been historically presented within the Christian community, and certainly not with the guilt, shame, desire for God to return the tithe with interest (a personal money making scheme), nor is the law of tithing to be used as a demand for obedience to a man made financial dictate.



1Tim 1:5, Now the end of the commandment is charity [love] out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; {having...: or, not aiming at} 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.



If the law of tithing was for the maintenance of the priests (that is aside from the Temple Tax to maintain the temple), then what happened to the teaching of 1Pe 2:9, “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” If this is true, why don’t the “saints” (the royal priesthood) share in the bounty? Where did this additional class of priests (men ordained by men ministry) come from? If this new priesthood created higher level of saints called, “Men of God”, then how can 2 Tim 3:16,17 be applied to the laity of the church, when according to our modern-day doctrines the men of God are only Pastors, Evangelists, Prophets, and Apostles? When this verse says, “16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {throughly...: or, perfected}



In Lu 10:7, Jesus noted that the seventy should receive some kind of compensation for preaching the good news. “And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.” Then, in 1Ti 5:18 we have the instruction that “the labourer is worthy of his reward.” That is a far cry from the priest is due one tenth of your income.



Should those who labor in the kingdom expect to be maintained by those to whom they serve? Yes. Paul taught on this concept. But, if a group of men are going to use the laws that apply to the Levitical Priesthood as a foundation for receiving tribute from the assembly, then these same men should be expected to not only teach and follow all eight laws of tithing, they should also observe all of the laws, commandments, and ordnances that apply to the that priesthood. [Today we are going to eat at the religious buffet. Pick and choose what you would like to partake of, and take as much or as little as you like.]



There is a world of difference between the N.T. teaching on sharing and giving, and the need and the attitudes that should prompt such actions, and today's demand for paying the temple tax and Levitical tithe.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Quote from a friend on this topic:

Thanks J-Roc, the scripture is so enlightening and refreshing, when we can read it without the blinders of tradition. Unfortunately most, I'm afraid are too shallow to read such a long post, much less, really be open to the truth that is conveys. Because it opposes tradition there is just not that much interest.

I love the word of God, reading and absorbing, free to simply receive what it really is saying, not just looking to confirm tradition. Thanks again.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Dan, I have a question for you. Do you believe God blesses those that give tithes to support the ministry? If so, why?

God will bless the faith of the giver, however that does not confirm method of giving as the law.