Why Sunday

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Amanah

What about Deut 5:15 which says that the Sabbath was instituted as a remembrance of being delivered from Egyptian bondage? doesn't that show that it was not observed prior to the exodus?

Good point.

They had rest from Egyptian bondage. And this also relates to the new covenant's spiritual rest from sin.

It has been proposed here that morality is not known by man without God's word. What you mentioned reminded me of something when you noted it does not seem that the commandment was in existence before Moses.

I disagree that morality is not known without the written word about it, but it is known by God's word through a means aside from written word -- spoken Word! And God created all by his word, and creation informs people of His moral truth.

But if the direct commandment and written word alone is the only way that man could know morality, and sabbath is supposed to be a moral law, the last thing we can assume is that man had received this commandment before it was written down in the record that we have without a written word to verify that anywhere. The argument, therefore, defeats itself in several levels. We cannot assume anything when it comes to the word of God.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

What about Deut 5:15 which says that the Sabbath was instituted as a remembrance of being delivered from Egyptian bondage? doesn't that show that it was not observed prior to the exodus?

Deuteronomy 5:12-15 KJV
Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. [13] Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: [14] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. [15] And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

In Exodus 20, the original giving of the Decalogue, states the reason for the 4th commandment thus:

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is , and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Putting the two together, we get this: remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, because God made everything in 6 days and rested the 7th, and blessed it and sanctified it making it holy. Remember you were once slaves in Egypt, but God delivered you with a mighty hand and signs and wonders, proving that He alone is the one true God (maker of heaven and earth), therefore because you were personally delivered out of bondage by the one true living God who created all things in six days and who rested the seventh and blessed and hallowed it, you were commanded to keep the Sabbath holy.

In other words, they were to remember WHO brought them out of bondage: the Creator God Himself. Sabbath keeping is a declaration of which God you serve, that you serve the MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH.

It says nothing about who did or didn't keep Sabbath prior to the Exodus. But if it did imply something along those lines, it would imply Israel while in bondage serving heathens was not obedient to keep Sabbath holy. Their lack of Sabbath keeping was a sign of their bondage. The Bible indicates they were in bondage at least partly because of their idolatry: worshipping gods other than the Maker of Heaven and Earth. Thus, if anything, God is telling them they were in bondage for forgetting to honour God, therefore make sure they keep His Sabbath holy as a recurring testimony to the fact they now serve the True God and Creator.

And then there is this:

Deuteronomy 24:10-18 KJV
When thou dost lend thy brother any thing, thou shalt not go into his house to fetch his pledge. [11] Thou shalt stand abroad, and the man to whom thou dost lend shall bring out the pledge abroad unto thee. [12] And if the man be poor, thou shalt not sleep with his pledge: [13] In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the Lord thy God. [14] Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates: [15] At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the Lord , and it be sin unto thee. [16] The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. [17] Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge: [18] But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the Lord thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

God commands equity and justice in taking collateral for debt, payment of wages, capital punishments, dealing with strangers, orphans, and widows. They are to do these things, and remember they were slaves in Egypt once, but were delivered by God. THEREFORE they are to do these equitable and just things. Nobody would suggest or draw the conclusions that 1) nobody prior to Exodus was required to do the right thing as outlined in these verses, or 2) Christians today are free to violate these instructions, all because "these things were commanded because God brought Israel out of Egyptian bondage."

[Amanah]

It seems that remembrance for new testament believers would be of the passover/Lord's supper, and pentecost/out pouring of the Holy Ghost.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I disagree. You flatly stated that it is moral to obey God just because it is God telling us to do something. You do not believe that now? You changed your stance? Explain.
previously you said this:

post 254


I am not mistaken.

You are mistaken in that you continue to split divine commands into moral and non moral categories. You are mistaken because you assume I believe laws create moral obligation "just because God said to do it."

I spent one (maybe 2?) paragraphs explaining moral obligation does not derive from the arbitrary will of God (or, "just because God said so".)

The 4th commandment is moral law because all law is moral law. Not because "God said so" but because law governing human behaviour and choices must by definition be moral law.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You miss the context of chapter 1. Yes, they originally did know idolatry was wrong. But that is why we read that they CHANGED THE GLORY OF GOD.

Romans 1:20-23.. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: ..(21).. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. ..(22).. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, ..(23).. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

"They" in chapter 1 is Israel. The heathen nations have not known God:

Psalm 79:6 KJV
Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.

Only in preflood days, and in the time shortly after the Flood, could it be said any knowledge of God was widespread. The ancients knew things, but a blanket statement that "the heathen know all the other 9 commandments are prohibitions of things they already know to be wrong" is blatantly preposterous. You seem to subscribe to the humanistic notion that everybody intuitively knows what is right and wrong, all sinners are just really unhappy and have a hole in their heart shaped like Jesus, etc.

The Bibles teaches that sinners are dumb, deceived, delusional, and foolish, especially idolaters. The idea that God doesn't need to tell mankind what is right and wrong is preposterous. Paul affirms that people wouldn't know what sin was unless the law of God tells them. People REQUIRE Divine revelation, otherwise they get lost in every imaginable abomination. Otherwise, morality is "every man doing what is right in his own eyes."

Man has a conscience, the faculty of discerning right and wrong, when presented to the mind. And yes, it is RIGHT to honour God by doing what He said in ALL TEN of the ten commandments.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It seems that remembrance for new testament believers would be of the passover/Lord's supper, and pentecost/out pouring of the Holy Ghost.

You are not a stranger (foreignor) to the Commonwealth of Israel. Everything that is of God is yours. Including His Sabbath, and the Divine deliverance from bondage.

[Amanah]

It's contrary that church service is traditionally held on Sunday, rather than on the Sabbath. Why not have it on Saturday. Something else we can thank the Catholics for.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You are not a stranger (foreignor) to the Commonwealth of Israel. Everything that is of God is yours. Including His Sabbath, and the Divine deliverance from bondage.

The dividing line between jews and gentiles was torn down when the ordinances were abolished

Eph 2:15 - Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You are mistaken in that you continue to split divine commands into moral and non moral categories.

Sorry, but it is obvious. There are no moral grounds for the rituals of washings and ordinances of cleansing and choice of the seventh day for rest. They are ritualistic.

You are mistaken because you assume I believe laws create moral obligation "just because God said to do it."

I spent one (maybe 2?) paragraphs explaining moral obligation does not derive from the arbitrary will of God (or, "just because God said so".)

The 4th commandment is moral law because all law is moral law. Not because "God said so" but because law governing human behaviour and choices must by definition be moral law.

Your error is thinking that choice and behaviour determine morality. Not they do not. Choices of CHARACTER and Behaviour in respect of CHARACTER show morality. A person who rests on the second day has no less character than a person who rests on the seventh because the number of the day of the week to rest has nothing to do with the good or bad character of people.

Just because a law governs behaviour does not mean it is moral in and of itself. You cannot force it to be so. Resting on the seventh not the third or second days, is not a moral issue. Resting is a different story. But on that particular day it is not a moral issue. You may conditon yourself to think that way, but that does not mean it is correct.

It is flatly ritual to make the rest day the seventh because God rested, and it is not moral because it directs behaviour. Morality is about good or bad character. Murder is from a bad character. Adultery is from a bad character. Seventh day rest not second, is nothing to do with character.

Just because a person must make a choice to fulfil the command does not make it moral either. How does CHOICE about something that has nothing to do with one's character have to do with morality?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It's contrary that church service is traditionally held on Sunday, rather than on the Sabbath. Why not have it on Saturday. Something else we can thank the Catholics for.

But the Lord visited the disciples on the first day fo the week. When He arose and when he met Thomas. I've read the arguments that Thomas did not see the Lord on the first day, but they fail. On the First day He arose and met the disciples. Eight days later is the next first day because the seventh day after is the seventh.

ADAM CLARKE: After eight days - It seems likely that this was precisely on that day se’nnight, on which Christ had appeared to them before;

ALBERT BARNES: And after eight days again - That is, on the return of the first day of the week.

JOHN GILL: And after eight days,.... That is, after another week, the same day a week later, which taking in the day in which Christ rose and appeared to Mary Magdalene, and his disciples, and the day in which he now appeared to the disciples with Thomas, made eight days; a like way of speaking see in Luk_9:28 compared with Mat_17:1.



And then the several examples of the first day of the week for gathering. And I've heard the arguments for what they were about and all the many attendances of Paul in the synagogue on the sabbath, as we all have seen here on this forum. But he was preaching to Jews where they were gathered for God. What better day than that? 1 Cor 9 said he became as a Jew to win Jews and those under law.

The anti_Sunday thing is more of a witch hunt, I think, than anything. Sunday is not holy and the Cayohlics did that to Sunday. Paul still said keep no days, months or years, and he could not have been talking about pagan calendars due to the stress on law in Gal 3 and latter part of Gal 4. Esteeming one day about another is prime sabbath talk as well.

Catholics are wrong and so are sabbatarians who keep sabbath. Sabbaths were a shadow and the days of shadows are gone. The Bible shows first day gatherings of the church.

Check out my book when it's done!