No Limits Conference Speakers?

[Barb]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

PTL! {AP falling on the floor in amazement that somebody actually agrees w/him about something }

To add to the above remarks, I have to wonder too how this sort of thing has hindered 'revival'? I wonder if we were to focus on making our churches safer places to be and would focus on being for things more than we're against things that maybe we'd grow more as we'd perhaps stem the flow of people going out the backdoor as fast as they come in the front. (A problem that frustrated me as the new converts pastor at CLC and one I understand is common in other churches as well, especially larger ones.) I wonder if maybe it would be better for the evangelistic goals of the UPC in the long run if they'd focus on these issue. We're supposed to be a place of safety and healing and I think that if we truly are proactive in making this happen and become allergic to abuse that the result will be growth. Just my opinion. And the opinion of my pastor who has made this idea one of the stated values of our church and the results have been astounding.

Hey, I love everybody on here. I hope that you guys realize that my motivation here is not a personal vendetta against anybody but a desire to see the UPC thrive and for the kingdom to grow and actually accomplish its mission in history.

I believe this...

Have a blessed night all...it's been a horrific day...I need to turn in.

[CC1]

A Po Mo,

I understand where you are coming from. It is a difficult situaiton because any constructive criticism is seen as "sour grapes. etc.

Many of the things you have described are not limited to any one church or leadership. It is pervasive in old time Pentecost, in essence a part of the culture.

What people have to realize is that those of us who point these things out are not saying that we are perfect or any other religious sects or ogranizations are perfect. Our imperfections and those of other org.s, churches, etc does not negate the shortcomings old time Pentecost needs to work on.

I get tired of the old line that one can't complain if one is not a member or that we shouldn't care. I also get tired of, as you mentioned, criticism being pushed back to the criticizer as if it cannot possibly be true that it is the criticizer that must be at fault.

Many times it is good men with good intentions caught up in ths culture and traditions that continue to make these mistakes. Someone, somewhere needs to learn and change that culture. It can only happen within but the clarion call can come from without that might cause the introspection to start the change.

[Thinking]

I have appreciated the candor of this conversation, and what appears to be sincere concern for the Work of God, and particularly for the UPCI. I, too, feel deeply those sentiments.

[Sweet Pea]

APMO........ How exciting that you have baptized your son in Jesus name and he has received the Holy Ghost! I remember him as a baby and toddler - I "think" he was about three when you left us.

I know that in a previous post (or thread) you indicated that you have found a church you are happy with and that you plan to obtain a license in that organization (maybe I misunderstood) - however, I understood it to be a church that did not believe the oneness of the Godhead or baptism in Jesus name. If I misunderstood, I stand corrected.

I am very thankful that your relationship with family has been restored. I realize that many people who have left are not so fortunate.

I have no reason to doubt anything you have said regarding your experience in the UPC - some things I don't understand either. But I also believe that if a person is honest and sincere hearted in their desire to live for God, HE will guide them and direct them to a place where they can. Maybe it is my temperment and/or personality - however, I'm not sure that I totally believe that "spiritual abuse" is so prevalent.


You have made some very valid points though regarding they way things are presented to new converts. I truly believe that this has changed in a huge way at CLC. In the past, I think things were sometimes said that were intended for the old guard - but it hits the new people instead.

You also stated that you desire to see the UPC thrive and accomplish its mission .... and somewhere, I think I read where you feel God is leading you to plant a church...... well maybe YOU could plant a UPC church that would be a place of healing and safety.... (I can dream - can't I??? )

As to my comments regarding rumors and exaggerations.... to be honest, several years ago, I had heard that you were not living for God in any form or fashion. Don't ask where I heard it because truthfully, I don't remember.

In all seriousness - I truly pray that you find YOUR place in God's Kingdom and He uses your ministry in a mighty way!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

I appreciate the response Miz. You seem like a reasonable guy and I look forward to talking w/you about that other stuff we were talking about in another thread.

What other thread is that? BTW, I'm not a guy. Maybe I should change my name, everyone seems to think I'm a guy!LOL

I did say that I tried to get both sides of the story regarding my friend and the other side confirmed what happened. Regarding the other incidents I was there personally and saw and heard it for myself so I'm not sure I need to hear the lady explain that she told a new convert that pants were associated with whores and then made no effort or even seemed unconcerned the person was so distraught. She never asked me about it later either btw. It goes to the core of the problem, a hard spirit.

I've always been put off when "standards" are preached especially when there are visitors to the church for the first time. It usually ends up being their last time. I've had a total of three pastors since I've been a Christian due to moving and two of them didn't preach a certain holiness standard but general principles of holiness. So I can say I haven't seen the abuses you have witnessed. The hard spirit is the the same spirit the pharisees had.

I love Sarge. Sarge and her ministry saved me when I left the UPC.

From what I've read of her posts on this site, Sarge speaks with a caring heart and wisdom.

Yes, i've been guilty of this. I like so many others did it unknowingly and with the best of intentions. But, once I saw it for what it was I repented and stopped doing it. I stopped teaching the classes and I then later resigned and left so as not to associate myself with it. And now I speak out against it.

My gripe with your speaking against it is in naming names. Paul called Peter out right then and there when Peter showed respect of persons. And yes, Paul wrote about it openly in an epistle for all to read and learn, but how do you know that things have not changed with the ones you are speaking against? How do you know God has not dealt with them and they have not repented like you did? You may unintentionally be sullying a reputation, some one's good name, who truly had a change of heart. I prefer to hear these accusations in a more generic form, without names or without the surrounding information that makes it obvious who you are talking about.

Have you read A Tale of Three Kings?

As my friend told me about how her gay friend was treated I had to apologize to her and to God for all the times I laughed at Charles Mahaney, et al when he'd bash 'fags' and 'queers' every time he preached at CLC with the full knowledge of the pastor who I can only assume didn't mind it since he invited CM back at least once or twice a year.

I respect you for apologizing to your friend. It takes humility to admit when we are wrong.

The only reason I name names is because it stops the tendency of people that want to deny the issue to relegate it to some stupid hick from the sticks somewhere in hill billy land. Obviously the problem is much more ingrained in the org culture than that considering the people I've seen who do it and continue to do it.

Like I said, we all answer to God. Do we have to sort every person out and point out their sins to others? Is that our job? Where does it say that in the Bible? Do you want your sins along with your name to be spread around the internet? Consider yourself.

We cannot ignore it and "let God sort it out". Paul didn't do that in Galatians and other places. When Peter tried to do it Paul called him on the carpet in front of everybody. Until enough people start speaking up and holding their leaders accountable for their actions then we have only ourselves to blame for our problems and we'll be held accountable on the day of the Lord for the children of God that we've hurt.

Do we have to do it on a public forum? Or is this something that should be done face to face?

Letting God sort it out is not ignoring it. I'm saying we should pray for these leaders that abuse their authority in the Lord. You know some of this stuff is said in utter ignorance and with all belief that they are teaching what they believe to be the truth of the word of God. I know it's phariseeical but they are blinded to it and need our prayers. They don't see it as abuse. Truly they don't. God can convict them, just like he did you and many others.

I agree with you that leaders should be held accountable to God for their actions as should everyone in the church.

Jesus said we may as well tie a big rock around our neck and jump in a big lake if we hurt his innocent children. Christ takes this stuff very seriously.

I agree with you. May God have mercy on us all.

[mizpeh]

Pomo,

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I dislike you or think poorly of you. I hope you hang around here. I appreciate your point of view. We all have different perspectives and maybe together we can come to know the mind of God more perfectly.

[Raven]

CC1 said it very well and my sentiments exactly. I can only make this addition: Amen!!!
Raven

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

Well, I guess it's obvious that I couldn't disagree w/ya'll more. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't want to contend for my views to the disunity of the group. I give specific examples of long term patterns of behavior and I'm "trashing a bishop". I'm sorry, but that people seem happy isn't all that matters. Righteousness and justice are what matter to God. This is the dominant theme from Exodus 34 through the new covenant. While in the UPC I heard alot of talk about accountability. But it seems that the level of accountability gets less and less with the more power and influence you gain. The bigger you get the more people bow and scrape and the more you know you can get away with. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is tragic that the people that have the greatest opportunity to do the most damage seem to have the least amount of accountability and are given the most latitude in wreaking havoc on people's lives. This is a systemic problem in the UPC (and evidently in the WPF based on NW's sermon as the titular leader of the new org) and it's slowly strangling the UPC in my view as it worms its way deeper and deeper into the fabric of the ethos. And it all starts (going back to the original point of this whole series of posts) with bad theology. There is an inbalanced view of respect for leadership, loyalty, accountability, church discipline, and the role and authority of pastors that over time leads us further and further away from truth and into more and more negative consequences for people and for the org. It can be stopped if people will say "enough is enough." However, evil triumphs when good men do nothing. We would NEVER stand idly by and watch a parent verbally and emotionally abuse a child. We won't even do that to dogs. But we do it all the time in our churches and I want to know why that's ok. I was talking to a preacher not long ago who is a high official in the UPC and who has been licensed w/the UPC for nearly 50 years. He told me that the UPC has changed over the last twenty years or so. He said that if he were starting over today and looking for an org that he'd not join the UPC and he'd discourage anyone from joining. He made the comment that its one of the only orgs he knows that kills its wounded almost as a matter of policy. One of his sons is in the UPC and this man has given him his blessing to leave. His reasoning has nothing to do w/the the WPF or lib vs.con or anything like that. He just recognizes the sickness in the UPC in this regard and based his opinion on principle. I thought that was pretty telling for one of its most loyal ministers to say something like that. As odd as it may sound, I love the UPC and its leadership. I want it thrive and I wish I could come back. So I guess I'll just leave it at that.

If there is anybody that understands, I do. I was licensed in the UPCI for over twenty years. My point is that to openly and blatantly speak against ones pastor is divisive. All you will do is create enemies. It is a sin to create division in the body of Christ.

Once an individual has been injured, if not properly healed, he/she will obsess with that which caused injury. Is there any value in openly speaking against pastors? All you are doing is revealing your unhealed injury.

If you really want to help, pray for them and love those who God sends your way. I deal with spiritually abused people all the time and reopening their wounds only causes more injury. Forgiveness is the answer.

We must be careful not to render evil for evil, but overcome evil with good! Satan has access to our hearts if we play on his level. That's all I'm saying. I understand you want to help, but in trying to help, you may injure those who love their pastors and are content in their relationship with God.

[Raven]

A PoMo
[By the way, we are both LR but I have the shorter hair. lol]

I appreciate your words and have actually attempted to keep track of you through the years. I may not agree with all your statements [my wife doesn't even agree with all of mine believe it or not!] but I do understand the spirit of your posts. A person would have to be blind and deaf not to see some of the problems. I believe the best course is to move on, learn from the experience, keep a good spirit, and try to do something that will affect a positive change. Reading between the lines and listening to the Spirit I believe that this is what you are doing. Often the problem is the medium of the written word that we are compelled to use here. In person, you would very possibly come across completely different to those who may misunderstand you here on AFF. You are valued. You do have friends. It does matter what you think! You can't go back but you can go forward.
Raven

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by CC1

A Po Mo,

I understand where you are coming from. It is a difficult situaiton because any constructive criticism is seen as "sour grapes. etc.

Many of the things you have described are not limited to any one church or leadership. It is pervasive in old time Pentecost, in essence a part of the culture.

What people have to realize is that those of us who point these things out are not saying that we are perfect or any other religious sects or ogranizations are perfect. Our imperfections and those of other org.s, churches, etc does not negate the shortcomings old time Pentecost needs to work on.

I get tired of the old line that one can't complain if one is not a member or that we shouldn't care. I also get tired of, as you mentioned, criticism being pushed back to the criticizer as if it cannot possibly be true that it is the criticizer that must be at fault.

Many times it is good men with good intentions caught up in ths culture and traditions that continue to make these mistakes. Someone, somewhere needs to learn and change that culture. It can only happen within but the clarion call can come from without that might cause the introspection to start the change.

Thanks. I appreciate your understanding.

You're right, it's not just the UPC. It's a part of the holiness culture. I just talk about the UPC and CLC because that's where I spent the majority of my time as an adult in the UPC. And even in churches that leave the UPC as they carry much of this with them, unwittingly. Ask me how I know. I just use them as an example of the larger problem and offer specific examples in order to avoid the accusations of 'broad stroking'.

Thanks too "Thinking".