When God speaks

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Not sure what you mean.

I see me battalogein as the negatived verb form of polylogia. So batta and poly are synonyms. They mean literally "many words". The idea is that the heathen believed they would move their gods to action by their "many words", that is, their bloated rhetorical compositions they called prayers.

In contrast, God knows all things, so we aren't praying in order to notify Him of anything. And He is our Father, so there's no need for rhetorical flattery and persuasion per se. I think it all is pointing to our view of God and our relationship with Him.

"battalogein" is repeating words without sense, like when you stutter, hence, by implication, it also means vain repetitions.
The heathen were not doing necessarily that. Their prayers introduction did have a sense, and an intention. What I think Jesus is using here is a figure of speech, comparing their persuasion flattery with words repeated without sense, like stutter, highlighting how useless they were when used towards God, not matter how much you did it, to get your petition.

We use figures of speech like that as well when we compare somebody's speech with "nonsense", or "barking", or other terms. No, in reality they are speaking something intelligible, but we are comparing their actions with something else to make a point of what they really are or mean to us.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I've mentioned this before in other threads on prayer, since God knows everything we need before we ask, it follows that prayer is NOT for the purpose of giving God some new information. We aren't sending information to God when we communicate with Him via prayer.

So then prayer isn't for HIS benefit. Rather it's for OUR benefit. Prayer doesn't send our information or data to God. Rather it is a means God has put in place by which HIS data or information comes to us, if that makes sense.

In prayer we recite certain attributes of God, we state our petitions, we give praise to Him, we thank Him, etc. All this is designed to communicate or transfer information - NOT from us to Him, but from Him to us! In prayer we contact God, and His Truth is brought to us, we are both reminded of His Truths and we speak His Truths. And thus we imitate Him who speaks reality into existence.

The sword of the Spirit is the rhema or spoken word of God. In prayer we speak the word of God. Thus we are conformed to His image, we are transformed into His likeness. God begins to manifest Himself in flesh through us, that is, He manifests His truth through us and our life.

I believe He just wants to hear our prayer, even if He knows it, because coming to Him with our needs shows our Trust in Him and it is an act of worship.

Psalms 50:15 (KJV) And call upon me in the day of trouble:
I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Song of Songs 2:14 KJVS
[14] O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

And? Nobody here suggested that God doesn't take pleasure in our speaking to Him. Well, except those who don't seem to like how some folks talk to Him, thinking He'd probably get irritated with their gushings of adoration....

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I believe He just wants to hear our prayer, even if He knows it, because coming to Him with our needs shows our Trust in Him and it is an act of worship.

Psalms 50:15 (KJV) And call upon me in the day of trouble:
I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

Relying on God is part of what we were designed to be. Christ relied upon God, and we are to be like Him. A fully operational human is one who is in connection with God and who derives their sustenance from Him. This requires prayer. I think it goes beyond "God just likes to hear our voice". God likes to hear our voice because that is part and parcel of how we commune and fellowship with Him and partake of His Divine nature.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I've mentioned this before in other threads on prayer, since God knows everything we need before we ask, it follows that prayer is NOT for the purpose of giving God some new information. We aren't sending information to God when we communicate with Him via prayer.

So then prayer isn't for HIS benefit. Rather it's for OUR benefit. Prayer doesn't send our information or data to God. Rather it is a means God has put in place by which HIS data or information comes to us, if that makes sense.

In prayer we recite certain attributes of God, we state our petitions, we give praise to Him, we thank Him, etc. All this is designed to communicate or transfer information - NOT from us to Him, but from Him to us! In prayer we contact God, and His Truth is brought to us, we are both reminded of His Truths and we speak His Truths. And thus we imitate Him who speaks reality into existence.

The sword of the Spirit is the rhema or spoken word of God. In prayer we speak the word of God. Thus we are conformed to His image, we are transformed into His likeness. God begins to manifest Himself in flesh through us, that is, He manifests His truth through us and our life.

Awesome!!!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

"battalogein" is repeating words without sense, like when you stutter, hence, by implication, it also means vain repetitions.
The heathen were not doing necessarily that. Their prayers introduction did have a sense, and an intention. What I think Jesus is using here is a figure of speech, comparing their persuasion flattery with words repeated without sense, like stutter, highlighting how useless they were when used towards God, not matter how much you did it, to get your petition.

We use figures of speech like that as well when we compare somebody's speech with "nonsense", or "barking", or other terms. No, in reality they are speaking something intelligible, but we are comparing their actions with something else to make a point of what they really are or mean to us.

Very interesting. But I'm currently having trouble identifying battalogia as including the concept of stuttering or repetition, and not simply a synonym for polylogia or "voluminous speaking". I know the usual Protestant commentaries insist on the meaning as having to do with repetitiveness, but I'm not seeing any classical Greek examples of such usage.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Awesome!!!

I learned this during a prayer meeting I had about 25 years ago, it was just me and an old legally blind brother in a small country church. Now THAT brother knew how to pray! It was when I experienced a whole new level of prayer. Old time altar pounding sanctuary shaking prayer. I learned a lot just by the experience.

[Esaias]

There is an interesting prayer of David, another "our Father" prayer, found in 1 Chronicles 29:10-13:

Blessed be thou, Lord God of Israel our father, for ever and ever. Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all. Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all. Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.

This is the benediction that starts off David's prayer, and although it (the benediction) contains no specific petitions, the similarity to the Our Father prayer taught by Jesus is unmistakable. The disciples would undoubtedly have recognized the parallels: "our father", "thine is the power and the glory... thine is the kingdom", etc.

It seems Jesus took David's prayer, especially the introductory benediction quoted above, and constructed a model prayer from it and other (Biblical) sources. A sort of "Biblical prayer in condensed form" as it were.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And? Nobody here suggested that God doesn't take pleasure in our speaking to Him. Well, except those who don't seem to like how some folks talk to Him, thinking He'd probably get irritated with their gushings of adoration....

You said it doesn’t benefit him. I’m sorry to disappoint you, yet when we talk to him it does benefit him.

Also, go to your wife and just keep saying her name over and over again. Then ask her if your talking with her, my guess is she would tell you no. Saying phrases in repetition isn’t praying nor is it taking to God. If that’s what you think prayer is, then that’s sad.

The best examples we have in prayer in my opinion is Daniel. Learn how he talked with God, how many times he would pray. A believer doesn’t need big words, doesn’t need to understand all the definitions of the Bible, he needs simple faith to talk to a God that he doesn’t see through a carnal eye. Talk to him as a husband talks to his wife. It benefits both parties, the best time the Lord has is when we talk to him.

[Esaias]

Matthew 6:9-13 KJV
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. [11] Give us this day our daily bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

As a model ("after this manner") we see the following structure and elements:

1. Benediction. An address to God as our Father in heaven (thus as the Supreme Being and Creator and Ruler of all, our Progenitor, Source, Leader, Provider, etc), whose Name is HOLY.

2. A request for the rule and dominion and will of God to be done in the earth as perfectly and completely as it is done in heaven. A request for the universal victorious spiritual and moral reign of God over all persons and situations everywhere. A request for universal obedience to God, not only in the disciple's life, but in everyone's life.

3. A request for personal needs, including temporal needs. A request for "daily bread", not just for the body, but the soul, for Christ is the true "daily bread" that if a man eat of he will live forever.

4. A request for pardon for transgressions, coupled with a reminder to forgive those who have transgressed against the disciple. For if we won't forgive others, we have no reasonable expectation of being forgiven.

5. A request for Divine guidance and deliverance from evil. We need wisdom in our decisions and wisdom comes from God. We need deliverance from evil and deliverance comes from God.

6. A closing doxology. A reminder to us that our prayers are to the One who has the power to make things happen, for whose glory everything is done, the One who rules and reigns over all, but especially over the disciple as a citizen of His Kingdom.