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  #41  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:44 PM
houston houston is offline
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
That's not sin. Do you have children?
Sure it is. And no, don’t ever wish that upon me.
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  #42  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:46 PM
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

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Why/how did this law of sin revive in a person if there is no sin nature?
Because the Law of God. Paul said he would not have known sin if he didn't first know the Law of God.

That doesn't mean he had a pre-existent sin nature that caused him to choose sin over the Law of God. It just means that when a commandment from God to not covet (his example in Romans 7) came into his life, like Eve, who also was not a sinner with a sin nature, Paul and all the rest of us, became beguiled into choosing the wrong thing.

That's when the law of sin revived. Prior to that, no law, no sin. Easy peasy.
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  #43  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:49 PM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

If we do by nature the things written in the Law "sin" and needed a Law to expose or to teach us that the things we naturally did was sin, is this not the definition of a sinful nature?
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  #44  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:51 PM
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

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Sure it is. And no, don’t ever wish that upon me.
Prove it's sin. I have four children, all seven and younger. I've been there done that. Our youngest just turned one. Our three year old is sometimes a headache and a half and disobeys a lot. But it doesn't mean he's sinning.

If a person cannot literally obey the Gospel (in order to be saved from sin and the wages thereof), because their capacity to understand it is null, then any action they undertake to do, even actions we might consider to be wrong, are not sins.

Otherwise, all young children who cannot comprehend the Gospel and so not obey it, who occasionally disobey mom and dad, who die, are all lost in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. Do you believe that?

And also, if occasional disobedience by children of that age equals sin, and all unrighteousness is sin, does that mean occasional obedience equals righteousness and salvation? Or does that door only swing open one way?
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  #45  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:57 PM
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
If we do by nature the things written in the Law "sin" and needed a Law to expose or to teach us that the things we naturally did was sin, is this not the definition of a sinful nature?
No, I don't think so. A sin nature is like having a human nature. Our human nature is the essential element of what we are. It defines and shapes us and cannot be escaped or changed.

So, to have a sin nature is the same thing. It means we have only inside of us, spiritually speaking, a one dimensional nature that is nothing but sin.

And that's not true of most anyone, young or old. Now, there is a corrupted element within us, that law of sin Paul wrote about in Romans 7, that is present and needs to be crucified and destroyed, and ultimately will be permanently eradicated from us when we are glorified at Christ's coming (1 John 3:1 and the end of 1 Corinthians 15).

But sin entered in, Paul wrote. It was not native (think nature) to us. It's an invasive, external corruption, like a disease or bacteria. It doesn't start out already resident in us.

And since it's not native, it's not our nature to have it within us. And some day, for the saints of God, the Lord is going to take it out of us forever.
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  #46  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:59 PM
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Think of it this way: We are told we are partakers of the divine nature. Does that make us divine? Do we have a divine nature now because we've been allowed to share in God's nature?

So, if no, then guess what? If we partake of sin, and share in it's nature as transgressions against the Law of God, does that mean we have a sin nature?
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  #47  
Old 06-25-2018, 03:24 PM
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

The belief in a sin nature is like trinitarianism. It is something that must be in existence first, and then Bible verses are sought out which are seen to "prove" the doctrine. Just like the trinity. Yet, mysteriously, there is not one passage where any prophet, apostle, or Christ himself taught that mankind is born with a "sin nature". There is no passage anywhere that defines this so-called "sin nature". There aren't even any passages which describe the doctrine of a "sin nature".

The sin nature doctrine leads necessarily and inevitably to the Immaculate Conception doctrine, in order to explain how Christ somehow missed inheriting a sin nature from His mother. Since all descendants of Adam possess a sin nature from birth, it necessarily follows that humans inherit the sin nature from their parents. It likewise follows that Christ, since He was born of a woman and is a biological descendant of David, and thus of Adam, Christ must necessarily have inherited this same sin nature. But that of course is not possible. Therefore, to avoid the dilemma of confessing either that Christ had a sin nature on the one hand, or that Christ was not genuinely human on the other hand, a doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" is created whereby Mary was supernaturally conceived in her mother's womb "without the taint of original sin". That way, Jesus could be both fully human and yet without inheriting a sin nature. Hocus Pocus, a la peanut butter sandwiches, voila!

The sin nature doctrine is a Roman Catholic doctrine, pure and simple. It was essentially invented by Augustine, who had not shaken off his Manichaean dualism from his gnostic days. His brand of gnostics believed that there was something inherently evil about flesh itself, something evil about material (physical) things. Yet the Bible does not speak of the human body itself as evil, but rather the "body of sin" or the "flesh" by which is meant the life of sin.

Romans 8:5-9
(5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
(6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Here it is clear that being "in the flesh" has nothing whatsoever to do with being a physical human with a real physical body. Since receiving the Spirit places a person in the category of "NOT in the flesh" yet people who receive the Spirit do not suddenly become disembodied spirit beings, it necessarily follows that "flesh" is used MORALLY, not biologically.

Paul clearly states the apostolic doctrine of the voluntary nature of sin:

Romans 6:19
(19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Previously, we YIELDED ourselves to serve iniquity and uncleanness. This is clearly a voluntary action, meaning it is a choice of the will. Voluntarily surrendering to unrighteousness produces a bondage:

Romans 6:16
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you YIELD yourself (voluntary choice of the will) to serve something, you become that something's bond-slave, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness.

The doctrine of an inherited sin nature makes sinning involuntary. And if it is involuntary, it has no more any kind of moral character, no more than eating, drinking, or farting has. And therefore, there can be no guilt attached to sin, since you cannot be GUILTY in a moral sense (that is, you cannot be TO BLAME) for things that you cannot in any way shape or form avoid. If you cannot help yourself, then you are not truly TO BLAME. Blame is nothing else than the moral character of not doing what you OUGHT to do. But you cannot "ought to do" something you literally cannot do.

If God commanded you to flap your arms and fly about the sky, you could not possibly obey. And your failure to obey cannot possibly be a cause of BLAME. To BLAME you for failing to flap arms and fly would be unjust, UNRIGHTEOUS, because you cannot be held to account for that which you literally cannot do. How can it be said you OUGHT to do that which is literally IMPOSSIBLE for you to do?

Jude 1:14-15
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

To properly convict a person of their sin, they must actually be to blame for their sin. There is a reason the old KJV uses the term "convince" instead of "convict". The reason is that a proper conviction requires proof "beyond any reasonable doubt". And the Final Judgment will include sinners themselves being without excuse. They will themselves be convinced, or convicted, of the truth of God's Judgment.

But if the sin nature doctrine is true, every sinner has the most plausible excuse for their sin, and will never be convinced of their actual guilt. The conscience, which recognises guilt and innocence, right and wrong, praise and blame, can never be convinced that the unable are to blame.

No more than you would assign moral guilt to a retarded child for their actions.
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  #48  
Old 06-25-2018, 04:22 PM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Are we made righteous be Christ only? If so what choice do we have to be righteous without him? And if we must have Christ to become righteous then what is the state of man naturally without him other than unrighteousness? What choice do we have without Christ to be free from sin?
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  #49  
Old 06-25-2018, 05:21 PM
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
Are we made righteous be Christ only?
We are made righteous by God, through faith, on the grounds of Christ's atonement and our obedience to the Gospel.

Quote:
If so what choice do we have to be righteous without him?
We can choose whatever we want, however genuine righteousness cannot be had apart from faith in God, and His imputation of righteousness to us.

Quote:
And if we must have Christ to become righteous then what is the state of man naturally without him other than unrighteousness?
Man's natural state is non-moral (it is called a "state of innocence"). Through sin, man's state becomes evil, unrighteous, or unclean. Through repentance, upon the merits of the atonement, one's state becomes righteous, holy, and clean.

Otherwise, all babies who die before repenting and obeying the Gospel are lost to the lake of fire.

Quote:
What choice do we have without Christ to be free from sin?
We must choose Christ, because He is the polar opposite of sin, He is the righteousness that God makes available to sinners who repent.
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  #50  
Old 06-25-2018, 07:55 PM
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1ofthechosen 1ofthechosen is offline
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Re: The Temptation of Jesus

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
All this discussion has been assuming there is such a thing as a "sin nature".

1. How do you and I acquire this "sin nature"?

2. How did Jesus not acquire this "sin nature"?

3. Does having a "sin nature" make sinning inevitable?

4. Does not having a "sin nature" make not-sinning inevitable?

5. How did Adam acquire a "sin nature"?

6. Is Jesus a bona fide human being? Or is He just "God-in-a-body"?

7. Is temptation sin?
I want to answer just one the rest have been answered correctly. But the number 2 question. One poster said Jesus avoided it by " because Jesus was divinely conceived", which is true. But on His Mother's side she had a fallen nature. The 100 % God did not, but the 100 % man had a mother with a fallen nature. Divinely conceived or not, if we are going to use David in Psalm 51 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." As the rule. Jesus wouldve been born with a sin nature also.

Sorry Bro. Esaias just got to the last page I just seen you covered that.
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Last edited by 1ofthechosen; 06-25-2018 at 08:11 PM.
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