Gino Jennings On Soul Sleep

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

And the way he teaches this he uses Spirit and soul interchangeably. But he even says a spirit lives forever.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Simple. The dead refers to the body.. Which is why we read absence from the body is presence with the Lord.

James 2:..26....For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But you can keep adding words that are not there to 2 cor 5.

Let's stay in context:

2 Cor 5
vs 1 says we know that if our current, mortal body were destroyed it's okay, because we have another body made by God waiting for us.
vs 2 says believers "groan" in their current mortal bodies, earnestly desiring to receive the glorified immortal resurrection body.
vs 3 says "assuming we won't be found naked" when that happens. Nakedness here of course refers to moral nakedness, not being covered by the blood of Christ.
vs 4 says we are burdened, NOT DESIRING TO BE UNCLOTHED , that is, we do not desire to simply escape this mortal flesh body, but rather we desire and look forward to being clothed upon, by receiving the immortal resurrection body. "That mortality might be swallowed up by life" is an undeniable reference to resurrection, see 1 Cor 15:54.
vs 5 says God has fashioned us for this very thing (to receive a glorified immortal resurrection body) and has given us the Spirit as a down payment and as a good faith deposit towards this destiny.
vs 6 through 9 contain the "absent from the body" language under dispute.
vs 10 says we must all appear before the judgment seat to be judged. It also says this appearing is so each may receive the things done in his body, whether good or bad. Done and his are in italics, not present in the Greek, so literally may be read as "receive the things in body", in other words, may be judged in the body. This makes sense considering the judgment takes place at the resurrection, not before.

Now, if you are correct, you have some problems. Apostolic believers look forward to the resurrection, and are NOT looking forward to just leaving this body. Yet all who believe like you do in fact look forward to dying and flying away to heaven, the resurrection isn't really necessary for them.

Secondly, if you go to heaven to be with the Lord at death prior to the resurrection, then mortality has been swallowed up of life before the resurrection, contrary to every other scripture on the subject.

Third, your belief implies the resurrection happens at death and does not involve any change to the original, mortal body.

Fourth, I know you believe in a resurrection so you would object to number 3 above, but in this you are being inconsistent.

Fifth, Paul never actually said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," as a declaration of fact, but instead as an attitude Christians have. "Willing to be" etc.

Sixth, Paul says we are confident, knowing to be dwelling at home in your own country "in the body" is to be "dwelling abroad or sojourning from" the Lord. This language is peculiar, and does not mean being inside a body vs being in front of the Lord, but living at home in the body vs sojourning on a foreign pilgrimage.

Seventh, Paul already said our confidence and desire is to receive the resurrection body (vs 1-4). Therefore, his statement in vs 6-8 must not be taken to mean something opposite to what he said in vs 1-4. But that is what your position does, you have him in vs 6-8 saying we are confident and willing to fly away from our body at death to be with the Lord, when he just got done saying specifically we DO NOT DESIRE such a thing at all, but RATHER to receive the resurrection body.

Eighth, the Bible teaches the spirit leaves the body at death and returns to God, which is nothing at all different than what Paul says in vs 6-8. Paul is explicitly affirming the truth of Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Ninth, the spirit returning to God, and the body returning to the earth, is called "death" and according to Scripture the dead do not have consciousness. Your view contradicts the Scripture's descriptions of the dead and would have Paul doing likewise, when in fact he is affirming the truth of Scripture that immortality is fully received in resurrection, not death.

Tenth, if the dead continue after death with conscious awareness, they must have a body of some kind. Only God can be a bodiless Spirit, otherwise we are all omnipresent. So your view has people receiving an immortal body before the resurrection, contrary to Scripture.

Eleventh, if not, then people who have an immortal spirit body already are looking forward to getting a second immortal body at the resurrection. This is straight up Egyptian Book of the Dead mythology.

Twelvth, nothing Paul said supports in anyway dead people being conscious, he said nothing about consciousness after death.

[Esaias]

Those who believe in the immortal soul doctrine routinely say "you are already going to live forever, it's just a matter of where." They believe you do not really die, you fly away to your eternal home in either heaven or hell, immediately upon death. However:

The serpent said "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis ch 3:4)

God said "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel ch 18:4, 20)

God said concerning the wicked "they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet." (Malachi ch 4:3)

God said comparing the fate of the righteous with the wicked "The LORD preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy." (Psalm 145:20)

Jesus said concerning God's only begotten Son "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life." (John ch 3:15, 16)

The doctrine that everyone - including the wicked and unbelieving - will 'live forerever' came straight out of the serpent's mouth. Not God's. Which is why all pagan religions believe in the immortality of the soul, in contrast to the bible truth of the necessity of resurrection by Jesus Christ.

[Esaias]

Adam became a soul when his flesh body was embued with spirit from God. "And Adam became a living soul". So then a soul is the combination of a flesh body with spirit (breath or ruach or pneuma of life). Adam WAS a soul, not merely a being who 'possessed a soul'.

One's soul is one's person, one's life, one's existence as a living being. Souls are resurrected, not merely bodies, for PEOPLE are resurrected (not just their bodies).

Nobody goes to heaven automatically. AFTER the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus, Peter declared that David is 'not ascended into heaven' but rather Jesus Christ was. Jesus Christ is the only human being in heaven right now.

Paul taught that we receive immortality at the resurrection. Therefore we are not immortal until then. We can say we have eternal life now, but only because we are set aside for the resurrection unto life at the coming of the Lord. What we have is an earnest until the purchased possession is actually redeemed in fact in the resurrection. Therefore, upon death the soul does not leave the body and fly away up to heaven. The Bible NEVER SAYS THAT. What it DOES say is that upon death the flesh body of man returns to the earth/dust from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Since body and spirit are separated at death, there is no living soul during that time. Only in the resurrection, when the dead are raised to life, when spirit and soul are reunited, can such a thing be possible.

The Bible says the dead know nothing, they do not praise God, they have nothing to do with anything going on here on earth, they 'sleep'. Those who die in Christ are said to 'sleep in Jesus'. If one is conscious up in heaven as a bodiless spirit then the term 'sleep' has no genuine application, for that is not at all like sleep.

As for being 'naked' upon death, Paul said this:

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The goal of the apostolic faith in the first century was NOT to be unclothed, but to be clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life. That is a clear reference to the resurrection. The hope of the first Christians was resurrection, not dying and flying away to heaven. Paul does not explicitly state that being dead equals being naked. This is an important point.

Paul says that being clothed (upon in resurrection) is to prevent being FOUND naked. Notice the following:

Rev_3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Paul is saying we earnestly desire ('groan') to be clothed upon (resurrected) IF SO BE THAT we do not appear 'naked'. The nakedness then is referring to not having our sins covered.

Rev_7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And,

Rev_19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So Paul is saying their hope was to attain to the resurrection of LIFE, not being found 'naked' but clothed - not merely with a resurrected body but clothed in righteousness.

He refers to a disembodied state NOT as 'naked' but as 'unclothed'. The fact the two terms are used in their specific contexts indicates Paul is making a theological distinction between the two concepts of on the one hand being 'naked' as to righteousness or sin, and on the other hand of being clothed as to resurrection bodies. '...IF SO BE that being clothed we shall not be found naked...'

The doctrine that people go to heaven immediately upon death PRIOR to the resurrection makes the resurrection itself superfluous. If you die and go to heaven, why would you WANT to have a body again and be on the earth? Your final destination would be LESS GLORIOUS and LESS BEATIFIC than the intermediate state.

Furthermore, immortality is given at resurrection. That is when we become immortal. To be immortal PRIOR to the resurrection, in heaven, is to receive the final reward BEFORE THE JUDGMENT DAY, which makes the Judgment Day either superfluous or ridiculous. In fact, it seems a slight variation of SDA doctrine who maintain the Day of Judgment is NOT when any decisions are made regarding final destinies, but simply when the already decreed decisions are carried out. And I find that concept utterly absent from the Bible (although it can be found all over Ms. White's writings...)

Now let's look at this:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Notice the bolded part. Does this mean that the apostolic believers were WILLING to be 'absent from the body'? How can be when he just said the following:

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

If verse 8 means Paul was desiring to be 'absent from the body', and if absent from the body means in a disembodied state, then he flatly contradicted what he previously said just 4 verses earlier!

Therefore, it cannot mean THAT. Notice he did not say 'absent from our bodies' (plural), but WE (plural) are willing rather to be absent from THE BODY (singular). That might be a big clue as to what he is trying to get across to us...

[Esaias]

In reviewing the statements made previously, and the passages in question, it seems that Paul is saying we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, that we will be present with the Lord in the resurrection, that we are looking forward to being 'clothed' with our resurrection bodies.

So, it seems Paul is saying that we are willing to be absent from THIS body of mortality, and present with the Lord (ie resurrected). (I am for the sake of the discussion willing to assume - at the moment - that the phrase 'absent from the body' means to be absent from our mortal bodies inherited from Adam, rather than 'body' being a metaphor for something else as in 'the body of Christ'.)

So then it seems that Paul is NOT teaching any interim state between physical death and physical resurrection, during which we are 'present with the Lord', or during which we are enjoying the 'Beatific Vision', etc.

This ties in with the rest of the Bible's teachings (as I described in the first post).

I believe that those who think that upon physical death, a Christian 'goes to heaven', are misunderstanding what the Bible teaches about the soul, as well as what the Bible teaches about the nature of immortality.

Many think they are a person who 'has a soul', as if the soul is a non physical entity or substance 'inside' their physical body. If that were the case, then there is nothing to say every person hasn't existed since the creation, and only 'came into this world' by God sending their soul into a body. (Arnold Murray, the Mormons, and some other groups teach this, as did the ancient Greeks and Hindus and Druids, etc). In fact, it is only one short step from such a thought to the idea of transmigration (reincarnation).

The Bible however teaches that man IS a soul. Genesis says 'and man became a living soul'. Paul repeats this in the NT. Adam was fashioned from the dust of the earth, and God breathed into him the 'breath' (spirit, ruach, pneuma) of life, and the man became a living soul. That is, the man became a living, breathing, animated person. A soul did not 'descend into his body', and neither did a soul 'ascend out of his body' when he died.

Here is what happens at death -

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The physical body returns to the earth, and the spirit (breath of life, the animating factor) returns to God. This is what happens to ALL people who die, the spirit that was in them, their human spirit, the 'breath of life' that animates their body and makes them 'alive' as opposed to being a slab of longshank, returns to God who gave it in the first place.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Beasts and humans 'all have one breath'. That word 'breath' is 'ruach' (pneuma in the Greek) and means 'spirit', the breath of life, the animating factor. Beasts and humans are 'alive', they aspirate, they breathe, they are animated by an immaterial energy that makes them LIVING. The difference however is in that final verse - the spirit of the beast returns to the earth, and the spirit of man returns to God. God said 'let the EARTH bring forth beasts...' but in regard to man he said 'let us make man in our image'. In other words, the beasts come from the earth, and their spirit or breath returns to the earth. Man however comes from God, and his spirit returns to God.

Now, since man IS a living soul, by the union of 'breath' or spirit and 'dust' or flesh, and since death is the separation of breath from dust/spirit from flesh, it follows that the soul does not 'live on' in a distinct, conscious existence after death.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead know not any thing, that is, they have no conscious awareness of anything. Death results in 'unconsciousness'. The dead are not aware of anything, they do not think or perceive. Their passions are perished, that is, they do not experience emotion or feeling. They do not participate in anything taking place, they do not interact with the living, they are not involved in anything going on. Their reward has perished with them. A look at Ecclesiastes shows that a man's reward is to enjoy the fruits of his labours, and that takes place in this life, and the dead are 'departed' so their reward (in context) is gone and no more.

David understood this as well:

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

The only way the dead would praise God would be if they 'arise' (resurrection), for in the state of being dead they do no such thing. Death is referred to as 'the dark' and 'the land of forgetfulness', thus reinforcing the Biblical understanding that death is a state of unconsciousness.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The dead do not praise the Lord. They are known as those who 'go down into silence'. They go down into their graves (into the earth), and that is a place of 'silence' meaning no speaking, no sound, no praises, thus by extension no activity. Again, the grave (the condition of being dead) is a place of silence, darkness, lack of awareness.

The word 'sheol' was translated into Greek as 'Hades'. The word Hades is formed from the word eido meaning 'to see'. This is where we get the word 'idea' from. The word eido, when combined with the negative particle 'a' (along with the rough breathing or 'h') gives us hades, the land of NO SEEING, or literally 'no idea'. That is to say, no perception ie unconsciousness. That is an apt description of the condition of the dead - unconscious, unaware, inactive.

Now, all of paganism worldwide maintained the exact opposite view - that humans are merely 'souls trapped in physical bodies', that upon death the soul or conscious self-aware self-identity of the person 'escapes' and goes somewhere else. Either to roam the earth as a ghost or shade (shadow of it's former physical existence), or to 'the Otherworld'. That Otherworldly destination might be benevolent and beautiful, or terrible and painful, depending on the moral character of the individual and the decision of the gods. It might be a dreary, dark, place, like the Hades of the pagan Greeks, or it might be a happy bright place, like the Elysian Fields of the same Greeks. Whatever it was, whether among the Hindus, Buddhists, pagan Greeks, pagan Romans, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Celtic Druids, or whoever it was, one thing was common - the soul or 'real person' left the physical body and went somewhere to continue its existence. The only difference was the physical body was left behind.

That is paganism. And that is nowhere found taught in the Bible. The Bible teaching, being a revelation from God, is the opposite to the pagan myths.

Notice, the serpent told Eve 'you shall not die'. Pagan religion has been from the beginning the religion of the serpent, and the fundamental teaching of all pagan religions is the fundamental lie of the serpent - YOU don't really die, you just move on into another form. Your body might die, but YOU LIVE ON regardless.

The Bible however teaches the exact opposite: people really do DIE. Their soul does not 'live on'. The Bible hope for mankind is RESURRECTION. Pagans generally looked forward to a future state of happiness in an disembodied state. God's people looked forward to a resurrection of the body, whereby the person (soul) COMES BACK TO LIFE to live eternally (throughout the ages).

[Esaias]

About dividing spirit and soul:

Originally Posted by Esaias

The WORD of God is capable of dividing the soul and spirit asunder in a spritual, theological sense, as when the unsaved SOUL confronts the Word of God and their results a conflict between what is now in their spirit and what is going on their LIFE (ie conviction).

If we take Paul's statement about dividing the soul and spirit asunder LITERALLY (ie physically) then we must also believe preaching the WORD will split people's bones and marrow apart...

...regardless of how high pitched some preachers get, it ain't gonna happen.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

One's soul is one's person, one's life, one's existence as a living being.

I seen that in the meaning of Nephesh also. So basically when Trinitatarians say GOD IS 3 person's they basically are saying He has 3 souls?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

About dividing spirit and soul:

Lol that statement was a classic.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I seen that in the meaning of Nephesh also. So basically when Trinitatarians say GOD IS 3 person's they basically are saying He has 3 souls?

Who knows what trinitarians are saying? They don't even know themselves. lol

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Let's stay in context:

2 Cor 5
vs 1 says we know that if our current, mortal body were destroyed it's okay, because we have another body made by God waiting for us.
vs 2 says believers "groan" in their current mortal bodies, earnestly desiring to receive the glorified immortal resurrection body.

Agreed so far. The mortal body will be gone and the weakness that we have existing inside it causes us to groan. Something in us knows it's not fit for us.

vs 3 says "assuming we won't be found naked" when that happens. Nakedness here of course refers to moral nakedness, not being covered by the blood of Christ.

I do not see that. I believe it is speaking about the soul being naked outside the body since the body clothes us. This is not a moral nakedness, although we can see a thought there related to moral nakedness. But the body CLOTHES our souls, even if it's a mortal body. And leaving the body leaves our souls naked.

vs 4 says we are burdened, NOT DESIRING TO BE UNCLOTHED , that is, we do not desire to simply escape this mortal flesh body, but rather we desire and look forward to being clothed upon, by receiving the immortal resurrection body.

Agreed, which is why I stated the soul without the body is naked, since the body is meant as a clothing. We groan because of the burden of this mortal body, and we want to be in an immortal body, not just outside the mortal body to remain "naked".

"That mortality might be swallowed up by life" is an undeniable reference to resurrection, see 1 Cor 15:54.

Amen.

vs 5 says God has fashioned us for this very thing (to receive a glorified immortal resurrection body) and has given us the Spirit as a down payment and as a good faith deposit towards this destiny.

Amen.

vs 6 through 9 contain the "absent from the body" language under dispute.
vs 10 says we must all appear before the judgment seat to be judged. It also says this appearing is so each may receive the things done in his body, whether good or bad.

We are judged for the deeds while done in this mortal body in which we receive testing due to the temptations the mortal body is susceptible to. So, we deny the flesh, and believe God for the strength of the Spirit upon us to resist fleshly urges. The mortal body houses sin, and the immortal will be free of such a thing. We're as we were in a cage with the lions of sin trapped with us, making us like Daniel. But as Daniel trusted God, and God shut the mouths of the lions, this force of sin is weakened to not work so long as we walk after the Spirit. Anyway...

Done and his are in italics, not present in the Greek, so literally may be read as "receive the things in body", in other words, may be judged in the body. This makes sense considering the judgment takes place at the resurrection, not before.

Here is where I believe you enter supposition. Not sure how it weighs out in the overall context and issue at hand, but we'll see as I read on in your thoughts.

The literal translation by Young reads as follows:

2Co 5:10.. for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one [u]may receive the things done through the body[u], in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil;..


DONE is in italics there.

So,the idea is we may receive the things through the body. Vincent expalins the Greek term s follows:

In the body (διά)
Lit., [i]through[/b]i the body as a medium.

So, it is not saying we will be judged in the body. It is saying we will be judged for issues THROUGH THE BODY, making the KJV addition of terms in italics correct. It is saying our judgment will concern things we committed THROUGH THE BODY, thereby separating the actual us from the body as well as indicating our judgment will be based on our lives's actions we committed through the medium of the body.

None of this changes anything about what I said about being absent from the body.

Now, if you are correct, you have some problems. Apostolic believers look forward to the resurrection, and are NOT looking forward to just leaving this body. Yet all who believe like you do in fact look forward to dying and flying away to heaven, the resurrection isn't really necessary for them.

Hold on, Hoss. Let me speak of my beliefs for myself. You jumped the gun and got my thoughts wrong. We are looking forward to getting out of this mortal body and into an immortal one that does not weigh us down. I do not even believe we will spend eternity in heaven, anyway. Heaven is where we go upon death in spirit and soul, and that renders our souls NAKED and without a body. We were meant to live in this earth and rule it in a physical body that would not die. Sin brought death, and it is not only spiritual death, although spiritual death is certainly involved. But it is also physical death. That is the reason the physical death of Jesus is associated with payment for our sins. The death that passed upon us all includes physical death and Jesus took that penalty as us in our places, so it would not be the end of our existence on earth.

Saints in heaven await the resurrection when we are once again clothed upon, but this time with a satisfying body that suits our purpose, as Paul referred to in 1 Cor 15 when he spoke of bodies being suited to the purpose of the creatures with which God made them. Our existence on earth requires an immortal body, and upon resurrection we return to earth to carry on in the kingdom that Adam abandoned, and robbed from all of us.

Heaven was not made for mankind. Psalm 115:16 says the heaven of heavens us the Lord's, but the earth was given to the children of men. That was stated long after God gave man dominion on the earth with no purpose of man dying physically until sin came along, and shows us Genesis 1 and man's dominion here is still the plan of God.

Those who think we simply die and go into heaven forever are the folks who need to realize there is no need for resurrection if that be the case. Bodies are made for EARTH ALONE. And that shows we shall return to Adam's prefall state of dominion over this earth and, as Adam initially was situated to enjoy, live forever in physical bodies to rule this world with God.

Secondly, if you go to heaven to be with the Lord at death prior to the resurrection, then mortality has been swallowed up of life before the resurrection, contrary to every other scripture on the subject.

Not at all, because death is of the body, and the only way mortality can be swallowed up of life is for the BODY THAT DIED to come to life again. You're basing your assessment of my thoughts and their conclusions on something I do not believe, and perhaps you have missed the thought that man is intended to live on this earth forever.

Now, some come along and call this JW teaching, since the JWs teach 144,000 go to heaven while the rest stay on this world. That is not my believe at all. EVERYONE resurrects and returns to earth to remain on earth and rule it forever. NO ONE remains in heaven for eternity future.

Third, your belief implies the resurrection happens at death and does not involve any change to the original, mortal body.

That is absolutely wrong. Resurrection DOES NOT happen at death. My belief states that death occurs, and our souls leave our bodies to be absent form them, and go to be present with the Lord in Heaven. And Resurrection LATER occurs where our naked souls rejoin our clothing of bodies, but immortal ones this time. The mortal body CHANGES INTO an immortal one.

Why did you say I believe resurrection happens at death?

Fourth, I know you believe in a resurrection so you would object to number 3 above, but in this you are being inconsistent.

Not at all. Why? I already said that my belief DOES NOT propose a waiting to go to heaven alone, without any need for the resurrection because, as I have shown, I do not believe heaven is our final destination, but only a temporary locale for our souls and spirits until the resurrection when things reconvene as God originally intended with Adam in the earth.

Fifth, Paul never actually said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," as a declaration of fact, but instead as an attitude Christians have. "Willing to be" etc.

You bring a great point out here, but I do not think it changes anything. Willing to be means it shows our desire with what God has planned.

Just because Paul said willing to be, does not mean it will not happen. We groan in this mortal body, and rightly so because God has planned an immortal body to clothe us. That shows hope of man agrees with God's plans, for why else would he groan to be clothed upon with an immortal body while God has planned for us to experience that very thing if man's hopes were not necessarily, in this context, what God plans. I claim the same is the case for the willingness to be absent from the body. Since he already showed what we would rather have in groaning in mortal bodies, and wanting to be clothed upon with a body from heaven, why could not this be the case with Paul's desire to be absent from his body?

But Paul goes further than just saying that is his will, as though it may not be God's will. He says HE IS CONFIDENT to be absent from the body as well as being willing to be so.

When he said he is confident for this experience, it indicates he knows it will happen, which is much more than just wishing that would be the case one day.


continued...