How many mansions fit in a cube?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I find Preterism interesting. But I have an problem with the idea of Satan being bound and this being the Millennium. I mean, frankly, he's no more "bound" from deceiving the nations than he ever was.

Again, and I've stated this many times whenever this is brought up, the context of Rev 20 states it is a binding against deception of nations in ONE SPECIFIC AREA:

Revelation 20:8-9 KJV And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The devil has not been able to gather all nations against the church. There has always been nations farvouarable to the church.

But what some may think is the great tribulation of Matt 24 ( which is actually past) will actually be the gathering of nations against the
church in Rev 20.

THAT is how Revelation explains the details of just what BONDAGE to not deceive the bondage refers to.

But the fact remains, Jesus bound the devil 2000 years ago, because He said in Matt 12 that you cannot SPOIL a strongman until your FIRST BIND HIM. And Col 2 plainly says the devil was SPOILED by Jesus, meaning He FIRST BOUND HIM already.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have David Chilton's book, The Great Tribulation and Kim Riddlebarger and Michael Horton's, A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times. But the concepts seem to stretch the symbolism to the point of it meaning nearly nothing, in my opinion.

Chilton's book is awesome.

The symbolism is far from meaning nothing. It is strictly using Old Testament stories as symbols in the form of TYPES for events in the New Testament time of the first century. When you think of the demand to restrict the interpretation to seeing how old testament stories using those pictures typify the teachings of the new testament, it shines like the sun!

[mfblume]

It also puts all the focus of prophecy in the very timeframe of the immediate years following the CROSS! It was not until I focused on the study of the cross above all other issues in teaching, that this came to me and I saw this view.

[mfblume]

If anyone did a simple google search for people's lists of all the Old Testament stories used as symbols in the book of Revelation, you would be blessed beyond measure. There are HUNDREDS of them. But people today are so unaware of the most obscure passages in the OT that the first century believer knew quite well.

Anyone know an OT story of drying up the Euphrates, for example?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Again, and I've stated this many times whenever this is brought up, the context of Rev 20 states it is a binding against deception of nations in ONE SPECIFIC AREA:

Revelation 20:8-9 KJV And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The devil has not been able to gather all nations against the church. There has always been nations farvouarable to the church.

But what some may think is the great tribulation of Matt 24 ( which is actually past) will actually be the gathering of nations against the
church in Rev 20.

THAT is how Revelation explains the details of just what BONDAGE to not deceive the bondage refers to.

But the fact remains, Jesus bound the devil 2000 years ago, because He said in Matt 12 that you cannot SPOIL a strongman until your FIRST BIND HIM. And Col 2 plainly says the devil was SPOILED by Jesus, meaning He FIRST BOUND HIM already.

I'm a simple guy, so please don't laugh at me for what I'm about to say...

What you're describing would make sense to me if Satan were said to just be "bound". But it describes a pit that is sealed. He's not just bound, these symbols imply that Satan is incarcerated.

But here's where you might laugh, but try not to, please try to understand what I'm saying (okay, even if you do laugh)...

As I'm trying to wrap my mind around this concept, a memory from my childhood suddenly popped into my mind. I used to watch Warner Bros cartoons when I was a little boy. There was a cartoon when Sylvester the cat died and went to... yep... Hell. In Hell, the Devil was depicted as the bulldog that always got the best of Sylvester. lol



Now, I was just a little guy when I saw that. But that cartoon shaped my early conceptualization of the Devil and Hell (I wasn't the theofundaquackylogian I am today). He was bound, imprisoned, in a dark, foreboding, fiery, place filled with torments and demons. I had a red action figure (I think it was the Human Torch) that I used to pretend was, "the Devil". I'd stack plastic milk crates up one on top of the other on their sides about four high and have him sitting at the bottom. When a G.I. Joe villain died, I'd drop him through the handles of the crates and he'd fall, fall, fall, with a clickity clackity noise of colliding plastic to the bottom where he was tormented by the Devil (my Human Torch action figure holding my Aquaman's Trident). LOL

I remember playing like the Devil couldn't escape. (I think I imagined that the sunlight might burn him or he was cursed to be confined) But he would torment those evil souls who fell his way (mostly Cobra action figures, and Ship-Wreck, I always thought he was a "bad man" because the figure had an anchor tattoo lol). And when the Devil wanted to affect something above, I'd have him send "demons" to wreak havoc on the surface. But the Devil waited, affecting the world through demons, longing for a day when he could be set free and destroy the world.

Now, I know you're probably laughing at the way I was thinking of it all when I was a little boy playing with toys and plastic milk-crates. But could Amillennialism be described similarly? I mean, from an Amillennialist perspective, might Satan be "bound" to this earth or "incarcerated" in the "pit", but affecting the world through demons?

Maybe I was an Amillennialist as a 5 year old and didn't know it! LOL

No, seriously, what are your thoughts?


P.S.

I'm not debating or mocking. I'm just chit-chatting and sharing what pops into my head as we discuss this topic.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If anyone did a simple google search for people's lists of all the Old Testament stories used as symbols in the book of Revelation, you would be blessed beyond measure. There are HUNDREDS of them. But people today are so unaware of the most obscure passages in the OT that the first century believer knew quite well.

Anyone know an OT story of drying up the Euphrates, for example?

I didn't Google it, but wasn't that a factor in the fall of Babylon in the OT?

[Aquila]

Hey, where did everyone go??? I think I'm getting this Preterism stuff.

[Aquila]

The implications of this are deep. If Satan is bound, clearly not only can he not deceive the nations and gather them as a world united against the saints, but obviously he would have to operate through demonic forces to influence the world, which is what we see. And if the millennium is indeed symbolic of Christ's rule from Heaven, all things are under His rule... now. History is therefore under His sovereign control, moving things forward to the consummation of history, His return for His bride. And when He does return, it would have to be a single event that spells the end of the entire drama with a single resurrection and a single judgment following that ushers in the eternal state.

This theology, if grasped, can blow your mind when you begin processing its implications.

For example, if Christ came in judgment against Jerusalem... did Christ come in judgment against Hitler? Saddam Hussain? Sam Kinison (who mocked the Holy Ghost as part of his comedy routine)? The eschatology is rather dynamic, leaving one open to contemplate, pray, and seek the "spiritual" reality of what's happening behind the events of history without being bound to a framework of conspiracy theories. The focus becomes Christ's redemptive rule in His management of history itself, not the rise of some "beast" superpower that will rule the world.

I'm not entirely sold... but if I'm seeing it correctly as it is being explained to me... This stuff is like a living eschatology on steroids.

Okay, where did y'all go? This is just getting interesting.

[houston]

i'm not entirely sold... But if i'm seeing it correctly as it is being explained to me... This stuff is like a living eschatology on steroids.

Okay, where did y'all go? This is just getting interesting.

hallelujah! ...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

All of New York mourned 9/11. Was a physical city made of stone, gold, glass, and lots and lots of trash actually mourning... or... might the reference to the city include those who inhabit it?

Another good example would be the term, "Israel". It represents both a geographical nation and the people who inhabit it.

The Bible plainly says John would be shown the Bride. That means the church. Then he is shown a fantastical cubical city with obviously symbolic features, such as the 12 foundations having the names of the apostles. As the church is built on the foundation of the apostles. Gates with the names of the 12 tribes, as the church is 12 tribed Israel under the new covenant.

So the city cannot be anything other than the Bride, which is the church, per the Bible.

Paul says the heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of us all. Not a physical city but a spiritual city, the church. Remember, John was seeing a series of visions, each vision REPRESENTS something. The city represents the church.