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  #41  
Old 03-13-2017, 09:37 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Riddle Me This-- St. John 17:5

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Originally Posted by CC1 View Post
I can't believe you said that. You know how sensitive I am.
How is your testosterone level?
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  #42  
Old 03-14-2017, 01:53 AM
houston houston is offline
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Re: Riddle Me This-- St. John 17:5

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
If that scripture does not point to the pre-existence of Jesus Christ the Son of God, then I ... whatever... I am not Oneness any more so I guess it doesn't matter.

Or maybe I am Oneness still who believes in the pre-existence of the Son, salvation by Grace through Faith, and water baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Regardless, what matters most is the Jesus Christ KNOWS what, who and WHOSE I am.
What you are is confused.
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  #43  
Old 03-14-2017, 11:40 AM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: Riddle Me This-- St. John 17:5

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What you are is confused.
Not true, but thanks for your positive feedback!
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  #44  
Old 03-14-2017, 07:43 PM
Johnson Johnson is offline
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Re: Riddle Me This-- St. John 17:5

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
Not true, but thanks for your positive feedback!
I am satisfied what I got in return for the evil you did against me without any cause.

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  #45  
Old 03-16-2017, 07:19 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Riddle Me This-- St. John 17:5

It wasnt till I heard the truth about the Logos that I fully accepted Oneness doctrine. Jesus pre existed NOT AS ETERNAL SON but as the image of the invisible God.

Gods own eternal life inside of a visible form. The angel of his presence.

9In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

This is what John was writing of in Chapter 1:1-3.

The angel was with God but WAS GOD.

The pre ordained Logos theory is to weak imo.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 03-16-2017 at 07:25 AM.
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  #46  
Old 03-16-2017, 07:29 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Riddle Me This-- St. John 17:5

Here is a good version of true Oneness doctrine.

Elder Ross Drysdale

http://web.archive.org/web/200410160...m/drysd15a.htm

Read this and you will be closer to Biblical truth about Christs pre existence. Then read the rest of his articles to tie it all together.
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  #47  
Old 03-18-2017, 05:03 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: Riddle Me This-- St. John 17:5

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Originally Posted by Halieus View Post
Just taking what Jesus says at face value here, yes, it does seem that he is implying that he was with the Father in heaven before becoming incarnate. The way you could confirm this in your own mind is to read the Gospel of John in one sitting at least through chapter 17. On the day following, read it again. Then read it again. Then read it again. Then read it again as many times as you can take it :-) and see if there are any other statements that Jesus makes leading up to this verse in John 17 that would make you think in v.5 that he is in fact saying he would be returning to the place of glory where he had actually been with the Father before the Father sent him from heaven to earth.

Or you could begin with chapter 6.22-62. Here Jesus declares that he is the Bread of Life who has come down from heaven. You'll note throughout this passage that he contrasts himself with the Father (e.g. v. 27) and several times says the Father gave him or (v. 32) sent him (v. 39) and that he has come down from heaven (v. 33).

Just taking Jesus at face value, he was in heaven with the Father before coming down to earth. He says he even saw the Father before the Father sent him (v. 46).

I think the critical verses to pay attention to are v. 38 and v. 62:

"38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

"62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?"

Note carefully what he says in v. 38. The image is of two in heaven both with the capability of willing something. Being the Son, he accepted the Father's will. The commissioning and yielding would have had to occur in heaven for Jesus to then say that he came down to do the Father's will.

In v. 62, he clearly says that he, the Son of Man, would ultimately go back to heaven where he had been before--not where he had been before "as God" but specifically as the Son.

Compare this with 13.3: "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God."

After dwelling on this for a while, you may want to reflect on John 16.16-30. What has struck me about this passage is Jesus begins by telling his disciples that he is intending to speak plainly about the Father using no figurative language (v. 25). Here's his plain speaking in vv. 28-30: "'I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.' 29 His disciples said to Him, 'See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! 30 Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God.'”

Jesus is speaking matter-of-factly, and so we are to take His words at face value. If we interpret Jesus’s words in any way but the most literal, matter-of-fact way, we directly go against how Jesus characterizes His own words here.

When I read all these passages at face value (and there is more in the rest of John that you will note yourself should you decide to read at least John 1-17 straight through in one sitting several times), I don't see how Jesus is not asserting that he did in fact exist with the Father before descending to earth and becoming incarnate and having done the Father's will he would go back to the Father in heaven.

Of course, right after chapter 16 where Jesus speaks plainly about coming from the Father and going back to the Father is the verse you mention . . . :-)

I have been Oneness for a couple of decades but am currently really struggling with the Gospel of John and how it does not appear to easily fit into a Oneness framework. In the event you are interested, I started a tread about this in the Debate Room in the folder on the Godhead.
To take your literal rendition to another level, if Jesus doesn't have the glory he once had before the incarnation, then that must mean Jesus vacated his place with the Father completely when he became a man. This is very difficult for most Trinitarians to defend because that would go against the "oneness" of God that Trinitarians want to say exists in their doctrine.

Are you leaning toward the Trinity or biblica Unitarianism?
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