Are all Catholics lost? - Page 5

Jason B · #41 07-06-2016, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You don't want to know anything. You already have created a paradigm which has made a system inclusive. So, how much error can one be in and have eternal life?

Not true. I want to know how you guys justify your opinions about the damnation of other Christians while ignoring the inconsistencies and variety within your own sect. Are all denominations or sub groups of OPs saved? If not, why not? Why is legalism and even superstition allowed to thrive nearly unchecked within the movement?

Jason B · #42 07-06-2016, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I take it Jason B isn't an Apostolic Friend?

I've got plenty of Apostolic Friends. You'd be surprised to hear I've visited a UPC a couple of times recently. I've got a lit of good to say about oneness pentecostals, but I'm also a realist and the theology and ideology has has massive inconsistencies.

Evang.Benincasa · #43 07-06-2016, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason B

I've got plenty of Apostolic Friends. You'd be surprised to hear I've visited a UPC a couple of times recently. I've got a lit of good to say about oneness pentecostals, but I'm also a realist and the theology and ideology has has massive inconsistencies.

Did you ever answer my question? How much error can one be in and have eternal life? I saw you post one verse from 1st John, but does that negate the letters of Paul, and the words of Jesus in the Gospel?

mfblume · #44 07-06-2016, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

If Love conquers all, then why not make that your doctrine?

You speak as though love supersedes the scriptures, a though the scriptures are not the ultimate decision and statement of God. You speak as though whatever the word says, that's not what we should go by as if the word is arbitrary based upon some OTHER standard of God. You say we are being legalistic (when you do not know what legalism even is), and that implies you believe the WORD is useless and cannot be depended upon as the final say in all issues, as though the love of God and His word are not complementary, with the word being less.

For you to accuse us of being lawyers when we state the word says such and such in response to your claims, is for you to believe the Word of God is simply not understood properly without some hocus pocus version of love. Hence, your view of love is skewed.

Jason B · #45 07-06-2016, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What about those who believed that Jesus wasn't God?
Does one have to believe that Jesus is God?
Jay Hoves weren't the first to come up with that.

In my opinion, I'd say thats a necessary point. But I think an argument can be made that believing Jesus is the Son of God is enough, even if one doesn't believe in His absolute deity. Now I don't believe that argument, but I simply admit it exists, and has for a long time.

For the better part of the 4th century it was Arian Christianity that became the dominant Christology of the day. It was Arian Christianity that penetrated into and converted pagans and Barbarians in the East, which eventually became Nestorian and Monophysite. To me, its not impossible to think this flawed and mistaken Christianity could have produced someone who was actually saved. Maybe even 2 or 3 out of the millions who followed Christ through that witness.

But for you, there all eliminated. Fit to fuel the flames if hell. Them stupid pagans were too dumb to know and should have figured out themselves Jesus was fully God, there was no Trinity, they had to say His name or their baptism didn't count, they had to speak in tongues, and they couldn't go to ball games. They didn't, so let em burn?

I know I'm making it plain, but isn't that exactly what you and ole Steve Epley believe?

mfblume · #46 07-06-2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason B

Quote:

So how can a person be saved if they believe a doctrine the bible contradicts?

Like standards? You don't believe standards must be kept in order to obtain salvation (and I agree with your position).....but a large percentage of oneness pentecostals do (probably still the majority, though losing ground). You know those who hold that if a man has a beard, if a woman trims her hair, if anyone wears a sleeveless shirt, or a woman wears pants or even capris, a man wears shorts, etc, they are sinning and going to hell. They are teaching that people can't be saved without obeying their standards. They are cutting people off from grace. Would not the entire book of Galatians and the full force of Paul's disdain apply directly to these, your "brethren"?

If someone thinks standards save then they're lost. Period. I don't care who they are. It's nothing but the blood that saves. I really don't know anyone who thinks standards save.

Quote:

How much correct doctrine must one believe to be saved? Are futurists saved? Calvinists? Oneness Sabbatarians? Do you believe everything right?

I am talking about the serious issues that deal with Hebrews 6:1-2's elements. There are issues we can be off on and still be saved. But there are others we cannot be off on and be saved. When someone says the bible does NOT contain all the truth God wants, I cannot believe such a person is saved. That's not even on the same level as someone keeping sabbath as opposed to another who does not. there are degrees of what is acceptable and what is not.

I know I am not 100% on everything. But we are talking about major major issues like the things I listed in Catholic's beliefs. Are you saying you sincerely believe a person can think the Bible does Not contain all truth and still be saved? What kinds of beliefs are not in the bible that one is required to know that are in reality damnable? Who knows? the sky's the limit.

But are you saying the things I listed as beliefs of the Catholic church can be overlooked and don't affect salvation?

Evang.Benincasa · #47 07-06-2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

You speak as though love supersedes the scriptures, a though the scriptures are not the ultimate decision and statement of God. You speak as though whatever the word says, that's not what we should go by as if the word is arbitrary based upon some OTHER standard of God. You say we are being legalistic (when you do not know what legalism even is), and that implies you believe the WORD is useless and cannot be depended upon as the final say in all issues, as though the love of God and His word are not complementary, with the word being less.

For you to accuse us of being lawyers when we state the word says such and such in response to your claims, is for you to believe the Word of God is simply not understood properly without some hocus pocus version of love. Hence, your view of love is skewed.

They paint a picture of an enabler who isn't a father, or even acts as one. He allows his children to do as they very well please without repercussions. Why? Because he loves them? No, he would be actually hating them. Therefore in Eph 4 we are told that ministry is given for the maturing of the saints for the work of the ministry. Jesus states that we are to be mature as God is mature? Not a father who allows his children to do as they want under the structure of his home.

Jason B · #48 07-06-2016, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Did you ever answer my question? How much error can one be in and have eternal life? I saw you post one verse from 1st John, but does that negate the letters of Paul, and the words of Jesus in the Gospel?

You affirm full preterism, so you tell me how much error is acceptable according to the letters of Paul...

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
2 Timothy 2:15?-?19 NASB

Evang.Benincasa · #49 07-06-2016, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason B

You affirm full preterism, so you tell me how much error is acceptable according to the letters of Paul...

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
2 Timothy 2:15?-?19 NASB

Jason B, where were the bodies?

Evang.Benincasa · #50 07-06-2016, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason B

In my opinion, I'd say thats a necessary point. But I think an argument can be made that believing Jesus is the Son of God is enough, even if one doesn't believe in His absolute deity. Now I don't believe that argument, but I simply admit it exists, and has for a long time.

Ok, so pretty quickly you are narrowing down your playing field?

All of a sudden we find you to be exclusive as well?