Question about Acts 2:38: What about the martyrs?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

A relationship with God begins with faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. The idea of getting saved is where we get this mixed up IMO. No matter where we are in the process I don't think that any of us are present tense saved. It is when we finish our course are we saved. Jesus told Peter that the Holy Ghost is what reveals him to people. If someone acknowledges Jesus as the messiah it is by the Spirit of God.

The thief on the cross found a place in paradise although he followed no plan of salvation. I am not negating repentance, Jesus name water baptism, and Holy Ghost baptism; These three things aren't the destination, but are part of the journey. I believe if someone believes on Jesus they will walk in obedience to his word. For those people who have yet to baptized or Spirit filled, we can trust God in His righteous to make the decision.

If we lead people to Jesus then we do our part. The rest is between the person and the Spirit of God. There are enough hungry people out there we don't have to spend all our time arguing with the religious people.

I teach Acts 2:38 as an "insurance policy" to be saved. I tell folks that outside of the policy is a bad situation to be in.(without saying everyone that is not saved under Acts 2:38 is going straight to hell)

[mfblume]

We can't use the picture of the thief on the cross when we talk about salvation. Jesus wasn't even dead yet, so nobody could be baptized into his death. Furthermore, Jesus had to resurrect from the dead before his death was beneficial. And not only that, 40 days after he resurrected he told them to begin preaching repentance, remission of sins in his name, and receiving the promise of the Father. That was obeyed after they received the baptism of the Spirit and then they began preaching what he told them to preach when he told him to preach it.

That puts the thief on the cross in the same category as everybody before the cross. The resurrection of Jesus atoned for those people by his death, also. But after his ascension into heaven, after the apostles received the spirit, everybody must, no exceptions, obey repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and receiving of the Spirit.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We can't use the picture of the thief on the cross when we talk about salvation. Jesus wasn't even dead yet, so nobody could be baptized into his death. Furthermore, Jesus had to resurrect from the dead before his death was beneficial. And not only that, 40 days after he resurrected he told them to begin preaching repentance, remission of sins in his name, and receiving the promise of the Father. That was obeyed after they received the baptism of the Spirit and then they began preaching what he told them to preach when he told him to preach it.

That puts the thief on the cross in the same category as everybody before the cross. The resurrection of Jesus atoned for those people by his death, also. But after his ascension into heaven, after the apostles received the spirit, everybody must, no exceptions, obey repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and receiving of the Spirit.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by randyabrown

The thief on the cross was saved under the old covenant. The new covenant didn't take affect until the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus.

In the gospels, Jesus tells us that new covenant salvation is coming. The epistles are written to people who are already saved - telling them about their salvation. It's the book of Acts that tells us how to be saved. Acts 2:38 is the fulfillment of John 3:5.

posted by M. BLUME
We can't use the picture of the thief on the cross when we talk about salvation. Jesus wasn't even dead yet, so nobody could be baptized into his death. Furthermore, Jesus had to resurrect from the dead before his death was beneficial. And not only that, 40 days after he resurrected he told them to begin preaching repentance, remission of sins in his name, and receiving the promise of the Father. That was obeyed after they received the baptism of the Spirit and then they began preaching what he told them to preach when he told him to preach it.

That puts the thief on the cross in the same category as everybody before the cross. The resurrection of Jesus atoned for those people by his death, also. But after his ascension into heaven, after the apostles received the spirit, everybody must, no exceptions, obey repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and receiving of the Spirit.

First, I want to say I am aware that the thief on the cross wasn't living in the period after Jesus sacrifice and resurrection. I agree with that. From the law of the Moses he had no right to eternal life. (He was a thief.) I believe his faith brought about his salvation. I am not an only believe teacher, but for those who are they will answer to God and not me.

It is not in my authority to grant people exemptions from what the word of God says. My point was that it will only be God who judges them. Of course we are to repent, be baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost. If I analyze some of those who have been martyred, I could make some arguments for them making it (not leaning in that direction, but just for discussion). It doesn't really matter for me are anyone else alive whether or not they made it, but only that we should obey the gospel.

As for the underlined part Bro. Blume, would you say all the martyrs that have not obeyed this are in hell? I am not saying they are or are not. I agree we must obey Acts 2:38, but I teach Acts 2:38 to lead those who live and not to condemn those who are dead. I stand firmly on Acts 2:38 to be the correct response to the call of God on a person's life, but yet I never want to feel like I have God in a box. He is sovereign and we that live must obey.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

First, I want to say I am aware that the thief on the cross wasn't living in the period after Jesus sacrifice and resurrection. I agree with that. From the law of the Moses he had no right to eternal life. (He was a thief.) I believe his faith brought about his salvation. I am not an only believe teacher, but for those who are they will answer to God and not me.

It is not in my authority to grant people exemptions from what the word of God says. My point was that it will only be God who judges them. Of course we are to repent, be baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost. If I analyze some of those who have been martyred, I could make some arguments for them making it (not leaning in that direction, but just for discussion). It doesn't really matter for me are anyone else alive whether or not they made it, but only that we should obey the gospel.

As for the underlined part Bro. Blume, would you say all the martyrs that have not obeyed this are in hell? I am not saying they are or are not. I agree we must obey Acts 2:38, but I teach Acts 2:38 to lead those who live and not to condemn those who are dead. I stand firmly on Acts 2:38 to be the correct response to the call of God on a person's life, but yet I never want to feel like I have God in a box. He is sovereign and we that live must obey.

I already said leave that for God to decide. Not us.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...14&postcount=3

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not so fast, Charnock. You make some assumptions that can't be left unaddressed.

in the debate section of the forum I have a six part video series that explains SALVATION. And it goes into the details of what I will say below. I challenge anyone to check that series out and show me my flaw of how the bible teaches Acts 2:38 salvation.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=48098

I am writing a book on salvation right now. These words that follow are included in it.



That is a quoted from Joel 2.

Joe 2:32 KJV And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

That's right there with the words in Joel about pouring out the Spirit.

And after Peter mentioned that, he proceeded to teach the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection.

Now, if calling on the name of the Lord was all there was to it, when the listeners asked Peter, "Men and brethren what shall we do?" Peter would have responded with the easy believism you are espousing, and said, "What do you mean, 'What shall we do?' I just told you! Call on the name of the Lord and be saved! there's nothing more to it!"

But that's not what Peter said. And more importantly, the listeners who heard Peter speak about calling on the name of the Lord to be saved KNEW BETTER themselves. That's why they asked Peter what to do!

It's the same scenario in Acts 10 when Cornelius was told by an angel to cal for Peter WHO WOULD TELL HIM WHAT TO DO.

Cornelius prayed all the time, and gave alms with his whole house. But the angel said Peter would tell him what to do. And amongst the things Peter told him, in fact commanded him, was baptism in Jesus' name.

Not only that, but Peter informed the listeners in Acts 2 WHAT TO DO, and it was associated with CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Baptism in Jesus' name is HOW YOU CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Proof:

Act 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

So, none of this merely calling n the name of the Lord as you espouse it is what is meant whatsoever.



And like I just proved, calling on the name of the Lord is in baptism in the context Peter referred. That is why Peter told them to do so after having quoted Joel 2.

And Romans 10 is not saying to speak Jesus' name in a simple prayer as though that saves you. Keep reading...

Rom 10:13-14 KJV For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You have to believe in order to call on His name. And as Paul extrapolated backwards from that point, he continued to show that each element he mentioned is not possible without the next element he lists.

Notice the sequence:

You cannot call if you haven't believed.

And you cannot believe unless you hear.

You cannot hear without a preacher.

Rom 10:15 KJV And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The preachers cannot preach unless they've been sent (HINT HINT: APOSTLES mean SENT ONES).

So, it all goes back to the apostles. So the apostles explained HOW TO CALL ON THE NAME AND BELIEVE. It's associated with baptism. Even Jesus associated FAITH/belief with baptism, when he said He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved.

You guys never go to the WHOLE counsel of the bible to deal with these things. You take things out of context.

Romans 10, by the way, is dealing with Jews and the question of their salvation, not laying out a plan of salvation. Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30 when he dealt with the issue. in Deut 30 we read God would gather Israel when they obeyed a particular commandment. Paul called if the WORD. Moses said that commandment was not far form them as though they had to ascend into heaven or cross the sea. He said it's as close as being in their mouths and hearts. THAT IS WHY PAUL SAID confess with the mouth and believe with the heart. That is all that Moses said in Deut 30.

Now any serious student of the word knows the Gospel is not plainly presented in the Old Testament, but HIDDEN. Only when we know the NEW Testament can we see the gospel in the OLD. So, if all there was to it was believing in our heart and confessing in our mouths, that's already in the Deut 30! But the ONLY REASON Paul used those terms was to show JESUS was foretold in Deut 30. TO JESUS SHALL THE GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE BE (Gen 49:10)! And after Paul said they had to believe and confess, he ensured they realized it had to be the way the APOSTLES EXPLAINED IT. And Acts 22:16 shows us how that was accomplished.

So, you just can't say, confess with your mouth and believe with your heart. The CONTEXT
says the sent ones had to explain the manner of how to believe.

Notice that Paul asked how people can believe except they have a sent preacher? Apostle? That goes along with what Jesus said:

Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

People would believe on Jesus THROUGH THE APOSTLES' WORD. Jesus put the seal of approval on all the apostles would teach, right there. We believe in the way THE APOSTLES SAID. We call on the name of the Lord in the way the APOSTLES SAID. And Acts 22:16 shows us how to call on the name IN BAPTISM.



Jesus never clearly laid out the salvation plan in John 3 nor ANYWHERE IN HIS ENTIRE MINISTRY before the cross. Just before Jesus left the world 40 days after his resurrection, He told them to preach salvation in a way HE HIMSELF NEVER BEFORE PREACHED IT.

Luk 24:47-49 KJV And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (48) And ye are witnesses of these things. (49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

BEGIN this message at JERUSALEM. That means no body preached it yet. Not even Jesus! The apostles would BEGIN in Jerusalem. And that was instructed to them 40 days after He resurrected! So this message was never heard by an preacher for the life of Jesus up to 40 days after He arose. And even then He told them to not begin until AFTER they were endued with the Holy Ghost promise.

Well, they went to Jerusalem in Acts 1 to get the Spirit so they could BEGIN preaching this message. And after they got the Spirit in Acts 2:4, Peter gave the message. AND the reason apostolics tout Acts 2;38 so much is because it is the message Jesus told them to preach in Luke 24:47-49!

Preach:

1) Repentance. Peter said REPENT.
2) remission of sins in His name. Peter said be baptized in Jesus' name for remission of sins.
3) Jesus would send the promise of the Father. Peter said receive the Spirit because the PROMISE is to you, and all afar off as many as God shall call.



And Jesus NEVER clearly laid out the plan of salvation ANY WHERE like HE DID THE DAY HE ASCENDED. He told the APOSTLES they'd begin preaching after He was gone and they'd received the Spirit baptism.

Folks don't tell people these details.


And Jesus said we would BELIEVE ON HIM THROUGH THE APOSTLES' WORDS:

Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus even said He had many things to say but they needed th SPIRIT FIRST! Just like He told them to not begin preaching til they got the SPIRIT.

Joh 16:12-13 KJV I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And by the way, Jesus implied tongues when he spoke to Nicodemus. Jesus said a SOUND (PHONAY in Greek -- from which we get the word PHONETIC or PHONE) is heard when the Spirit is involved, like with the wind. And PHONAY in Greek means LANGUAGE. What other SOUND LANGUAGE is involved in being born of the Spirit than tongues?

But the point is Jesus said the apostles would get the Spirit, and understand all Jesus wanted them to know that HE COULD NOT EXPLAIN before that Spirit came, long after He ascended.

Whoever started this thread, please know that not many folks will tell you these details!



And Jesus said WE WOULD BELIEVE IN THE WAY THE APOSTLES EXPLAINED IT.

So what about martyrs? they're not saved by their own blood, that is BLASPHEMY! Nothing but the blood of Jesus saves.

We have to leave it to GOD. Period. We do not know nor can we say we know everything. Leave it to God. It's not bad to admit we simply don't know. Just do what we know the Bible says to do. And READ ALL THE ACCOUNT and not just pieces taken outside of context like this post has done.

Blessings!

Amen!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We can't use the picture of the thief on the cross when we talk about salvation. Jesus wasn't even dead yet, so nobody could be baptized into his death. Furthermore, Jesus had to resurrect from the dead before his death was beneficial. And not only that, 40 days after he resurrected he told them to begin preaching repentance, remission of sins in his name, and receiving the promise of the Father. That was obeyed after they received the baptism of the Spirit and then they began preaching what he told them to preach when he told him to preach it.
That puts the thief on the cross in the same category as everybody before the cross. The resurrection of Jesus atoned for those people by his death, also. But after his ascension into heaven, after the apostles received the spirit, everybody must, no exceptions, obey repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and receiving of the Spirit.

The thief on the cross was saved according to the Law, just as a righteous man was condemned if he forsook righteousness.....according to the Law!

I think Eze. 18 lays it out very well.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Brother you have no idea how right you are.

I think anyone silly enough to use one verse of the bible to dismiss other verses, is an idiot.
We must take all the bible, complete, every single verse is compatible with all other verses.
The bible is like a huge jigsaw puzzle, we must put all the pieces in their proper place and we will see that no piece is extra, they are all needed to give the full complete picture.
Just imagine if you started throwing pieces away because you could not fit them, would you ever get a true picture of the puzzle?
it is the same with some people who are not smart enough to fit the bible verses together so they assume they contradict each other and in their mind they dismiss them.

Not many will take away scriptures to throw them away. However, there seem to be
many that will ignore scriptures!

[Esaias]

The thief on the cross wasn't a martyr for Jesus.

Next?

[Servetus]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The thief on the cross wasn't a martyr for Jesus.

Next?

Salvation has always been through faith. The thief on the cross was saved the same way we are, which was the same way Abraham was. There are not two (or more) plans of salvation.

Romans 4

What does Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 5:1-2 NIV

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Next.