Original Sin

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not totally true. The Hebrew in Genesis 2 literally says IN DYING YOU SHALL DIE. It's more than "surely die." It speaks of a process. DYING. They died both spiritually and physically due to sin.

I also believe that grey hair is proof that "in dying you shall die". Now, if
our spirits die because of sin, do you believe that that makes us alive only
as animals are alive?

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the
obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

The question then becomes, when were we made sinners? I believe
we were made (became) sinners when we sinned, because of the Law.

Next question: when were we made righteous? I believe we were made
righteous when we received the free gift because of the sacrifice.

[shazeep]

nice. It's not the doctrine of OS, which warps that, but rather Scriptural.

Originally Posted by mfblume

We're talking bible, not "western" doctrine.

ok well consider that you are immersed in this doctrine, from birth, and now maybe can't see a forest...there is over twice the death and killing in kids shows v adult ones. Our Christians are the largest arms dealers on the planet. I could go on. The OS you are discussing should amount to a footnote now, for a Christian; not a centerpiece.

[Lafon]

What do we mean when we say "Original Sin"? Here's my answer.....

When God created all things; mankind, animals, as well as what we call "vegation" (i.e, plants), He placed within each a thing called the "seed." When that seed is placed, or implanted into its proper place, it will be replicated as another of like kind. Example: place the seed from a MacIntosh apple in the ground, and it will be replicated as a MacIntosh apple tree in whose fruit will be a seed that also possesses the ability to replicate itself. And so it was with mankind.

This is why God first created a "male" body, for it was within that body that the
"seed" of humanity resided. And when God created & brought all of the animals to Adam, he could not find one among them like unto himself, and so God caused a deep sleep to overtake him, removed one of his ribs, with which He formed a "female" body, which would become the proper place where Adam's "seed" could be implanted and replicate itself. Indeed, this is the whole purpose for the distinctive difference between the bodies of the female and the male, and accounts for the reason why God so abhors homosexuaity!

When Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit, did God pronounce a judgment of death upon her body? Absolutely not! And there was a reason for that. She did NOT possess within her substantive body the "seed" whereby any of the other souls that He had created could become manifest in their own bodies. (Make no mistake about it, but God DID create every soul of mankind at the same time, for the words of Genesis 2:1-2 make it explicitly clear that at the end of the 6th day He "rested" from ALL of the work that He had made, and there exists nothing written elsewhere in the entire Bible stating that He has created any thing since that time.)

However, when Adam chose to disobey God's commandment, the results were so catastrophe that it not only effected Adam, both "body" and "soul," but all of the bodies which the now corrupt "seed" within his body would replicate. This was because when God imposed the judgment of death upon Adam's body, the "seed" whereby all of the other souls would be manifested would, through NO fault of their own, take on or assume the SAME corrupt qualities of their progenitor Adam. This is why Paul in I Corinthians 15:21 to advise us that "by man came death."

In summary, it is NOT that any man inherits what we commonly call "Original Sin," rather that which every man (I use that word as "gender neutral") inherits as a direct consequece of Adam's willful act of disobedience to God's commandment, is the penalty of death. A penalty that simply CANNOT be overcome except by an act of God!

Not even the act of water baptism or baptism of the Holy Ghost can annul, render void or do away with this judgment! This is why "it is written" by the Hebrew writer, "...it is asppointed unto men once to die" (Hebrews 9:27). Ye, even Peter expressed this when he wrote that water baptism accomplished only that of clearing one's conscience of the guilt associatedf with sin, but did NOT do away with the "filth of the flesh" (a metaphor or figure of speech which means the judgment of death).

My twocentsfortoday about this matter.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

What do we mean when we say "Original Sin"? Here's my answer.....
When God created all things; mankind, animals, as well as what we call "vegation" (i.e, plants), He placed within each a thing called the "seed." When that seed is placed, or implanted into its proper place, it will be replicated as another of like kind. Example: place the seed from a MacIntosh apple in the ground, and it will be replicated as a MacIntosh apple tree in whose fruit will be a seed that also possesses the ability to replicate itself. And so it was with mankind.
This is why God first created a "male" body, for it was within that body that the
"seed" of humanity resided. And when God created & brought all of the animals to Adam, he could not find one among them like unto himself, and so God caused a deep sleep to overtake him, removed one of his ribs, with which He formed a "female" body, which would become the proper place where Adam's "seed" could be implanted and replicate itself. Indeed, this is the whole purpose for the distinctive difference between the bodies of the female and the male, and accounts for the reason why God so abhors homosexuaity!
When Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit, did God pronounce a judgment of death upon her body? Absolutely not! And there was a reason for that. She did NOT possess within her substantive body the "seed" whereby any of the other souls that He had created could become manifest in their own bodies. (Make no mistake about it, but God DID create every soul of mankind at the same time, for the words of Genesis 2:1-2 make it explicitly clear that at the end of the 6th day He "rested" from ALL of the work that He had made, and there exists nothing written elsewhere in the entire Bible stating that He has created any thing since that time.)
However, when Adam chose to disobey God's commandment, the results were so catastrophe that it not only effected Adam, both "body" and "soul," but all of the bodies which the now corrupt "seed" within his body would replicate. This was because when God imposed the judgment of death upon Adam's body, the "seed" whereby all of the other souls would be manifested would, through NO fault of their own, take on or assume the SAME corrupt qualities of their progenitor Adam. This is why Paul in I Corinthians 15:21 to advise us that "by man came death."
In summary, it is NOT that any man inherits what we commonly call "Original Sin," rather that which every man (I use that word as "gender neutral") inherits as a direct consequece of Adam's willful act of disobedience to God's commandment, is the penalty of death. A penalty that simply CANNOT be overcome except by an act of God!
Not even the act of water baptism or baptism of the Holy Ghost can annul, render void or do away with this judgment! This is why "it is written" by the Hebrew writer, "...it is asppointed unto men once to die" (Hebrews 9:27). Ye, even Peter expressed this when he wrote that water baptism accomplished only that of clearing one's conscience of the guilt associatedf with sin, but did NOT do away with the "filth of the flesh" (a metaphor or figure of speech which means the judgment of death).
My two cents for today about this matter.

Very well put. You have exceeded yourself: it's worth THREE cents!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

I also believe that grey hair is proof that "in dying you shall die". Now, if
our spirits die because of sin, do you believe that that makes us alive only
as animals are alive?

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the
obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

The question then becomes, when were we made sinners? I believe
we were made (became) sinners when we sinned, because of the Law.

Next question: when were we made righteous? I believe we were made
righteous when we received the free gift because of the sacrifice.

Yes, alive only like animals before we're saved.

Romans 5 tells us when we became sinners. One man's disobedience made us sinners before we were born. I agree with you about when we're made righteous.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

nice. It's not the doctrine of OS, which warps that, but rather Scriptural.

Not following that sentence. Can you rephrase it?

ok well consider that you are immersed in this doctrine, from birth, and now maybe can't see a forest...there is over twice the death and killing in kids shows v adult ones. Our Christians are the largest arms dealers on the planet. I could go on. The OS you are discussing should amount to a footnote now, for a Christian; not a centerpiece.

I got my doctrine on this issue from the bible, primarily Romans 5. And again, not following you quite well. Can you rephrase it?

[shazeep]

ah ok well you likely have a personal doctrine; however, there is an official doctrine of OS--namely that we are all sinners because Adam sinned--which the "Developed World" has operated on since the 2nd (spurious) Council of Nicea. Now, whether we are all sinners because Adam sinned, or we are all sinners because we sin after Adam is truly irrelevant to the doctrine, which insists upon the former as a starting point for our religion.

"The question then becomes, when were we made sinners? I believe
we were made (became) sinners when we sinned, because of the Law.

Next question: when were we made righteous? I believe we were made
righteous when we received the free gift because of the sacrifice."

The doctrine of OS warps the former, and ignores the latter; and it shows up in a thousand subtle ways in our culture. As i said earlier, the doctrine might be seen as just a convenient way for pastors to explain something that is demonstrably pointless to inquirers--who after all, have all sinned at that point--but it goes deeper than this. Really, nobody cares, or is edified about, the hair splitting--practically speaking, you are a sinner because you sinned; and you sinned because you have, or had, a sin nature. Sin comes naturally to us, because Adam sinned, and we as humans naturally copy our parents. As i'm sure you know, the phrase "Original Sin" is not in the Bible.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ah ok well you likely have a personal doctrine; however, there is an official doctrine of OS--namely that we are all sinners because Adam sinned--which the "Developed World" has operated on since the 2nd (spurious) Council of Nicea. Now, whether we are all sinners because Adam sinned, or we are all sinners because we sin after Adam is truly irrelevant to the doctrine, which insists upon the former as a starting point for our religion.
"The question then becomes, when were we made sinners? I believe
we were made (became) sinners when we sinned, because of the Law.
Next question: when were we made righteous? I believe we were made
righteous when we received the free gift because of the sacrifice."
The doctrine of OS warps the former, and ignores the latter; and it shows up in a thousand subtle ways in our culture. As i said earlier, the doctrine might be seen as just a convenient way for pastors to explain something that is demonstrably pointless to inquirers--who after all, have all sinned at that point--but it goes deeper than this. Really, nobody cares, or is edified about, the hair splitting--practically speaking, you are a sinner because you sinned; and you sinned because you have, or had, a sin nature. Sin comes naturally to us, because Adam sinned, and we as humans naturally copy our parents. As i'm sure you know, the phrase "Original Sin" is not in the Bible.

"...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after
the similitude of Adam's transgression..."

Prior to Moses and the Law, man died because of Adam: once the Law was in place, man died by transgressing the Law.

[Aquila]

When Adam sinned, several things occurred.

1.) Adam's dominion over the earth was compromised, for whosoever you serve is your master. Adam surrendered his god ordained authority and dominion over the earth to Satan. This has allowed demonic influences access to tempt and afflict mankind.

2.) Adam was denied access to the tree of life, the source of eternal life, and by virtue of this denial, all of mankind has become subject to aging, sickness, and death. This caused a fundamental change in our biology leaving us subject to various hormonal and genetic anomalies. Many of these things bring an inherent proclivity towards sin, or what is known as the "sin nature". It resides in our flesh, conditions our minds, and grieves our spirits.

3.) In Adam, the entire human race was cut off from God. Now, all of mankind begins life on a trajectory that will lead them straight to Hell if they do not stop and change direction (repent).

4.) Adam's sin brought a curse upon all creation, causing the entire creation to become subject to death and entropy.

5.) All of these things considered, Adam's sin left the entire human race in desperate need of a Savior.

Adam's sin changed everything.

[Aquila]

Man is a tripart being, a trichotomy - body, soul, and spirit.

1.) The body (Grk. Soma) is the physical part of man. It is largely governed by biological processes rooted in it's genetic make up. It is subject to hormonal imbalances, aging, sickness, and death. Prior to the fall, Adam's body wasn't subject to any of these things. However, now that our bodies are subject to these things, our bodies are in desperate need of regeneration. This will be experienced in the resurrection.

2.) The soul (Grk. "psuche/psyche") is the self-conscious reality in man. It is the "mind". The seat of one's reason, intellect, will, and emotions. It experiences the world around it through the five senses of the body. Therefore, the mind is subject to being conditioned by what it experiences through the body. Pleasure, pain, tragedy, abuse, shame, and guilt (results of the fall) all serve to condition the soul and how it processes it's own identity in relation to the reality around it. The soul is also in desperate need of renewal. This comes through prayer, meditation, fasting, and the study of Scripture. These things are a reconditioning of the mind (soul). The goal is "the mind of Christ". To believe, think, and therefore live as Jesus. One day Heaven's glories in the New Heavens and the New Earth will serve to completely recondition the mind and allow this reality to flourish unhindered, thereby regenerating the soul.

3.) The spirit (Grk. pneuma) is called the "breath of life". It is the living essence within the core of man's being. It is here that man's higher consciousness resides. This is the "inner man" and is the seat of intuition, conscience, spiritual awareness. It is considered to be dying or completely dead and un-functional in those who live merely in their flesh or intellect. It is desperate need of regeneration.

This is the fallen and broken condition of man.

Salvation is designed to address each aspect of man's being.

When one receives the Holy Spirit the very Spirit of God comes to reside in the spirit of man. There is a spiritual joining or union that causes the Holy Spirit and the human spirit to become one spirit. Thus, the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit isn't in that the Holy Spirit now dwells in man as man being a vehicle, but rather now the Holy Spirit resides in, permeates, is united with man's spirit. This brings a sinless perfection into man's spirit. In this, we become living extensions of Him, branches of the true vine. This allows the power and life of the Holy Spirit to flow through the dormant or dead spirit of man, bringing with it life, power, activation of the faculties of intuition, conscience, and spiritual awareness. This process is known theologically as Regeneration.

Once man's intuition, conscience, and spiritual awareness is brought to life the inner man (spirit) is now alive and active. This brings conviction to draw nearer to the source of this new life, God. This is done through prayer, meditation, fasting, and the study of Scripture. This renews the mind (soul) and begins the process of sanctification, which is the process whereby we are conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus. This is a lifelong process whereby the soul's identity is constantly challenged. Until this point, the soul has identified itself in accordance to pleasure, pain, tragedy, abuse, shame, and guilt. Now the soul must identify itself in Christ alone, in accordance to the Word of God. This is a constant struggle and continues throughout one's life until death and resurrection.

With man's spirit having been regenerated and man's soul being conformed into the image of Christ the last part of man to be changed is the body. Throughout life on earth the body will remain un-regenerated. It's hormonal processes, imbalances, and genetic anomalies and proclivities, will continue as the body ages, succumbs to sickness, and eventually dies. Thus one must surrender to the promptings of the spirit and take authority over the body, mortifying the deeds and desires of the flesh. The body will experience it's regeneration when it is raised in glorified perfection at the resurrection. Then all sinful impulses as it relates to our biological nature will vanquished. Until then, the inner man and the flesh struggle between spiritual impulse and carnal physical impulse on the battlefield of the mind (the soul).

All of this is the result and remedy as it relates to Adam's sin and mankind's condition.