Respect as Women

[n david]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I'll attempt to explain, but this is something that has come up in bits and pieces over the course of years of conversations. It's a complex topic that is hard to parse into a few paragraphs.

We've never taught our daughters that the traditional dress standards are scriptural (unless they can be clearly found in scripture). We have always taught them to be modest, to be feminine and to be classy/appropriate. IMO (and in my husband's opinion), most standards are applications of scriptural ideas or principles, but the rules themselves are obviously not clearly spelled out. Because of that, we wanted to present dress rules to them in THAT way, and not in the traditional "you have to do this or you'll go to hell." To have done that would have been lying, at least for us. We've also taught them the importance of obeying church leadership, even when you don't agree with a rule.

All that said, our girls have grown up with a clear understanding of the difference between something being clearly scriptural and something being a "preference" or simply a church teaching (that doesn't affect their salvation).

With that foundation, I have presented to my daughters the idea that living modestly and conservatively affords certain benefits that women who dress immodestly can't enjoy. There's simplicity in making modest choices, dressing modestly often commands respect from others, and in some ways it can be protective. Of course, I also extend this to behavior--not just the way we dress--but I do believe that how you present yourself to others affects the way they treat you.

Also, if my daughters want an Apostolic man who lives according to certain sets of values, then they will probably have to conform to the dress standards that accompany those values. To that end, we've recently had conversations in our home, as the girls get older, about the "bait and switch" routine. That's where a woman follows the rules until she gets married and then drops them because she never really wanted to follow them in the first place. One of my girls is interested in an ultra-con boy, and I had a serious discussion with her about the importance of accepting the rules that go along with the *lifestyle* for the long term and whether or not that was doable. For the good of the relationship, you have to go into with your eyes open, knowing that you can accept living by a set of rules even if you don't necessarily think they're biblical or necessary. What can be even more difficult is making your own children follow those rules, and we talked about that, too. We didn't just discuss that from the point of view of "you'll have to choose this", but more from the POV of "think hard before you accept a lifestyle, because it's a longterm choice."

Simply put, I like my conservative lifestyle, and while there are issues I find troublesome, I think overall that choosing to be an Apostolic women is similar to choosing to be a Muslim woman or an Orthodox Jewish woman, etc. There are trade-offs and there are benefits, and pragmatism is a necessity to survival and peace. Depending on the personality of the woman, it can be difficult or it can be easy. I don't find rules hard to follow, even if I find them disagreeable. I realize that isn't every woman's experience, and I think I've just tried to give my girls the benefit of my experience. Which is: In spite of the fact that I don't agree with every standard or guideline, my overall experience in the Apostolic church has been positive and beneficial to my life--as a Christian and as a woman.

[ILG]

Very good, Miss B. And I am going to guess that, if your daughters chose a different lifestyle, that although you would be disappointed, you wouldn't be fasting and praying for their very souls and in despair over their impending doom.

Another thing about dating an ultra-con boy.....I think your daughter should understand that there is inherent danger in believing that standards are salvational and can cause great hardship when a couple is not on the same page with their children (or even when they are if the belief is that standards are salvational).

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by ILG

...Another thing about dating an ultra-con boy.....I think your daughter should understand that there is inherent danger in believing that standards are salvational and can cause great hardship when a couple is not on the same page with their children (or even when they are if the belief is that standards are salvational).

I agree, and that's why we've had these conversations. I realize from my own experience that it can be easy to follow rules yourself but harder to push them on your children when you don't believe they're biblical.

We've had a unique experience in this district because of our pastor. He's very respectful about parental authority and ultimately one of the wisest men I know. Church leadership obviously plays a huge role in what sort of "experience" you have with the church, regardless of the denomination.

Right now we have one daughter who has voluntarily made a decision to impose very strict rules upon herself (stricter than what we live and what our church teaches), for various reasons, and another who is kind of *on the fence* about it all. Our position has been to talk to them and let them choose their direction on their own. My theory is that if my daughters choose a conservative lifestyle for themselves with as little outside pressure as possible, they will have a more positive experience and are less likely to suffer from resentment and frustration later. It's only a theory and only time will tell if I'm right.

You are correct that I wouldn't be upset if my daughters chose to abandon standards per se, but I would be upset and disappointed if they abandoned modesty and femininity altogether, because those are values I've tried very hard to instill. I would be very upset and fasting and praying for their souls if they abandoned Apostolic doctrine. That would be difficult for me to handle. From that POV, I understand people who are upset when their kids abandon standards, because they believe those things are salvational and they do fear for their kids' souls. At that point it does boil down to this: The one thing you absolutely can't force your kids to do is have a relationship with God.

[Amanah]

I want to thank all the women who have posted in this thread so far for the sincere, heartfelt, honest, open, respectful, and intellectual discussion.

You are setting an example that epitomizes what women are best at bringing to the table: needful and respectful discourse without resorting to insult and attack.

Well done my sweet sisters.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I'll attempt to explain, but this is something that has come up in bits and pieces over the course of years of conversations. It's a complex topic that is hard to parse into a few paragraphs.

We've never taught our daughters that the traditional dress standards are scriptural (unless they can be clearly found in scripture). We have always taught them to be modest, to be feminine and to be classy/appropriate. IMO (and in my husband's opinion), most standards are applications of scriptural ideas or principles, but the rules themselves are obviously not clearly spelled out. Because of that, we wanted to present dress rules to them in THAT way, and not in the traditional "you have to do this or you'll go to hell." To have done that would have been lying, at least for us. We've also taught them the importance of obeying church leadership, even when you don't agree with a rule.

All that said, our girls have grown up with a clear understanding of the difference between something being clearly scriptural and something being a "preference" or simply a church teaching (that doesn't affect their salvation).

With that foundation, I have presented to my daughters the idea that living modestly and conservatively affords certain benefits that women who dress immodestly can't enjoy. There's simplicity in making modest choices, dressing modestly often commands respect from others, and in some ways it can be protective. Of course, I also extend this to behavior--not just the way we dress--but I do believe that how you present yourself to others affects the way they treat you.

Also, if my daughters want an Apostolic man who lives according to certain sets of values, then they will probably have to conform to the dress standards that accompany those values. To that end, we've recently had conversations in our home, as the girls get older, about the "bait and switch" routine. That's where a woman follows the rules until she gets married and then drops them because she never really wanted to follow them in the first place. One of my girls is interested in an ultra-con boy, and I had a serious discussion with her about the importance of accepting the rules that go along with the *lifestyle* for the long term and whether or not that was doable. For the good of the relationship, you have to go into with your eyes open, knowing that you can accept living by a set of rules even if you don't necessarily think they're biblical or necessary. What can be even more difficult is making your own children follow those rules, and we talked about that, too. We didn't just discuss that from the point of view of "you'll have to choose this", but more from the POV of "think hard before you accept a lifestyle, because it's a longterm choice."

Simply put, I like my conservative lifestyle, and while there are issues I find troublesome, I think overall that choosing to be an Apostolic women is similar to choosing to be a Muslim woman or an Orthodox Jewish woman, etc. There are trade-offs and there are benefits, and pragmatism is a necessity to survival and peace. Depending on the personality of the woman, it can be difficult or it can be easy. I don't find rules hard to follow, even if I find them disagreeable. I realize that isn't every woman's experience, and I think I've just tried to give my girls the benefit of my experience. Which is: In spite of the fact that I don't agree with every standard or guideline, my overall experience in the Apostolic church has been positive and beneficial to my life--as a Christian and as a woman.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I agree, and that's why we've had these conversations. I realize from my own experience that it can be easy to follow rules yourself but harder to push them on your children when you don't believe they're biblical.

We've had a unique experience in this district because of our pastor. He's very respectful about parental authority and ultimately one of the wisest men I know. Church leadership obviously plays a huge role in what sort of "experience" you have with the church, regardless of the denomination.

Right now we have one daughter who has voluntarily made a decision to impose very strict rules upon herself (stricter than what we live and what our church teaches), for various reasons, and another who is kind of *on the fence* about it all. Our position has been to talk to them and let them choose their direction on their own. My theory is that if my daughters choose a conservative lifestyle for themselves with as little outside pressure as possible, they will have a more positive experience and are less likely to suffer from resentment and frustration later. It's only a theory and only time will tell if I'm right.

You are correct that I wouldn't be upset if my daughters chose to abandon standards per se, but I would be upset and disappointed if they abandoned modesty and femininity altogether, because those are values I've tried very hard to instill. I would be very upset and fasting and praying for their souls if they abandoned Apostolic doctrine. That would be difficult for me to handle. From that POV, I understand people who are upset when their kids abandon standards, because they believe those things are salvational and they do fear for their kids' souls. At that point it does boil down to this: The one thing you absolutely can't force your kids to do is have a relationship with God.

It is reassuring to know that there are pastors who allow proper parental authority in the home, and do not try to usurp the authority of the husband/dad with their own wishes.

Miss B, would to God that more mothers would understand the importance of teaching their daughters the importance of modesty, femininity and self-respect as you have done.

I can resonate with what you have said, as we have done the same in our home. We have tried to teach our children the principle, instead of the application. There is a huge difference.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I want to thank all the women who have posted in this thread so far for the sincere, heartfelt, honest, open, respectful, and intellectual discussion.

You are setting an example that epitomizes what women are best at bringing to the table: needful and respectful discourse without resorting to insult and attack.

Well done my sweet sisters.

Yes, this is a wonderful discussion, and I hope it speaks to the hearts of men and women alike.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I want to thank all the women who have posted in this thread so far for the sincere, heartfelt, honest, open, respectful, and intellectual discussion.

You are setting an example that epitomizes what women are best at bringing to the table: needful and respectful discourse without resorting to insult and attack.

Well done my sweet sisters.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

...We have tried to teach our children the principle, instead of the application. There is a huge difference.

Nice job of summing up what took me about 456 paragraphs to say.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Nice job of summing up what took me about 456 paragraphs to say.

Great minds thinking alike...

[MarieA27]

Thank you MissB, you said this much better than I could have. I always approached standards by the principles that is based in scriptures, being honest with myself, and judging myself correctly, making sure that when I do something, that I'm not condemned by the scriptures.

[Esaias]

If anyone thinks women are treated badly in OP circles, you ought to see how they fare in Orthodox Jewish circles.