Paul's gospel must be accepted

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Ok you are not going to answer. I will say my answer would be no i am not 100% obedient/submitted to God. Correct me if wrong but your answer probably the same.If so, if you die would you be lost formissing the mark of 100%?

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Talking about your lifestyle in general. walking in perfection?

Truthseeker, I believe MTD is echoing the thoughts of Apostle John here:

1 John 2
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

Like John said, "We should not sin, BUT if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father: Jesus Christ."

I don't think it is a matter of "I have reached a sin-free state", but rather we should be so God conscious that we love what he loves and hate what he hates.

Looking at:
1 John 1
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.

The blood continuously cleanses us AS WE WALK in the light.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

To the UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents:

This is the difference between the sin through Adam and the righteousness through Jesus Christ:

Rom 5
16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all.
Jesus' obedience resulted in justification for all (not counting men's sins against them).

The difference HOWEVER is shown in both Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
Rom 5:17 says "those who RECEIVE God's grace"
2 Cor 5:20 says "Be reconciled to God"
So we see that man has to receive the grace of God

In a nutshell, this was/is Paul's gospel: "God has reconciled you to himself. Now, reconcile yourself to God."

Reconciliation takes MORE than one party.
Forgiveness can occur as a result on ONLY ONE party's effort, but it takes both parties involved for reconciliation to occur.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION is therefore false based on the following:
1. That sinful man does not have to consciously receive the grace of God (EVEN THOUGH Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20 says man has to put his faith in Jesus Christ to be justifed)
2. If justification is received without belief in Christ (i.e no effort from man) just like condemnation was received from Adam (without effort from man), then those who do not believe in Christ should not have to go through the "refiner's fire" (as universal reconciliation claims).
That is, since ALL MEN partake of God's justification through Christ without even putting their faith in Jesus, then, ALL men should go straight to heaven.

Therefore UNIVERSALISTS, by claiming that unrepentant sinners will go through the "refiner's fire" PROVE (unfortunately for their doctrine) that an unrepentant sinner is NOT justified in the sight of God.
Therefore, their whole claim that justification is received EXACTLY the same way the condemnation was received falls into shambles.

My UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents, if ALL men receive justification through Christ (without belief) just like condemnation through Adam (without belief), then, why do you teach that unrepentant sinners will still go through the "refiner's fire?"

Now, on the other extreme is LIMITED ATONEMENT. This is based on the belief that because some people will go to the lake of fire, therefore, their sins MUST not have been atoned for by Jesus Christ.
Again, the answer to this teaching is found in Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
1. We were reconciled to God while we were his enemies by Christ's death
2. We need to receive the grace of God through faith in Christ.

So both UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION and LIMITED ATONEMENT are wrong.

My friend, you contradict yourself. Our reconcilication is the grace of God, thru Christ. Our maturity in Christ requires our participation, some will not come to full stature of Christ without the refiners fire.

You have to acknowledge that we WERE reconciled to God WHILE we were yet sinner, or else deny the Word of God.

Why is it a problem for folks to go thru the refiners fire??? None of us have reach the full stature of Christ. Believers have to go thru it in this life, plus their works must be tried by fire at the judgement seat of Christ. So your declarations are not sound. Scripture says, that ALL must be salted with fire, no one is automatically exempt just because they are reconciled. Maturity is God's objective, not robotics, so that His righteousness is a natural outflowing of who we have become in Christ.

BTW all this "fire" is symbolic.

[TGBTG]

Sorry, but you did not even respond to the scripture I quoted (2 Cor 5:20), yet you say I contradict myself.
To reply you though,

Originally Posted by crakjak

My friend, you contradict yourself. Our reconcilication is the grace of God, thru Christ.

Let's look at it again:

2 Cor 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Paul TAUGHT:
1. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself (not counting men's sins against them)
2. Be ye reconciled to God

This shows God did something AND we also NEED to do something in response.
Paul DID NOT just stop at "God has reconciled us"

Originally Posted by crakjak

Our maturity in Christ requires our participation, some will not come to full stature of Christ without the refiners fire.

Our maturity?? How can an UNBELIEVER mature in Christ when he has not even be clothed with Christ's righteousness??

Originally Posted by crakjak

You have to acknowledge that we WERE reconciled to God WHILE we were yet sinner, or else deny the Word of God.

Again, 2 Cor 5:20 answers this plainly. It teaches that God reconciled us to himself while we were his enemies (not counting our sins against us), yes.
But then goes further and says "Be ye reconciled to God.
You seem to ignoring the part that says "Be ye reconciled to God"

Originally Posted by crakjak

Why is it a problem for folks to go thru the refiners fire??? None of us have reach the full stature of Christ. Believers have to go thru it in this life, plus their works must be tried by fire at the judgement seat of Christ. So your declarations are not sound. Scripture says, that ALL must be salted with fire, no one is automatically exempt just because they are reconciled. Maturity is God's objective, not robotics, so that His righteousness is a natural outflowing of who we have become in Christ.

Don't you see how you contradict yourself?? If someone who has not believed in Christ has the same justification as someone who has believed in Christ, then, why should the unbeliever go through a "fire"??

Originally Posted by crakjak

BTW all this "fire" is symbolic.

Whether the fire is symbolic or not, why should an unbeliever go thorugh a "fire" that a believer does NOT have to go through since they have both received justification from God??

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

To the UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents:

This is the difference between the sin through Adam and the righteousness through Jesus Christ:

Rom 5
16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all.
Jesus' obedience resulted in justification for all (not counting men's sins against them).

The difference HOWEVER is shown in both Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
Rom 5:17 says "those who RECEIVE God's grace"
2 Cor 5:20 says "Be reconciled to God"
So we see that man has to receive the grace of God

In a nutshell, this was/is Paul's gospel: "God has reconciled you to himself. Now, reconcile yourself to God."

Reconciliation takes MORE than one party.
Forgiveness can occur as a result on ONLY ONE party's effort, but it takes both parties involved for reconciliation to occur.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION is therefore false based on the following:
1. That sinful man does not have to consciously receive the grace of God (EVEN THOUGH Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20 says man has to put his faith in Jesus Christ to be justifed)
2. If justification is received without belief in Christ (i.e no effort from man) just like condemnation was received from Adam (without effort from man), then those who do not believe in Christ should not have to go through the "refiner's fire" (as universal reconciliation claims).
That is, since ALL MEN partake of God's justification through Christ without even putting their faith in Jesus, then, ALL men should go straight to heaven.

Therefore UNIVERSALISTS, by claiming that unrepentant sinners will go through the "refiner's fire" PROVE (unfortunately for their doctrine) that an unrepentant sinner is NOT justified in the sight of God.
Therefore, their whole claim that justification is received EXACTLY the same way the condemnation was received falls into shambles.

My UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents, if ALL men receive justification through Christ (without belief) just like condemnation through Adam (without belief), then, why do you teach that unrepentant sinners will still go through the "refiner's fire?"

Now, on the other extreme is LIMITED ATONEMENT. This is based on the belief that because some people will go to the lake of fire, therefore, their sins MUST not have been atoned for by Jesus Christ.
Again, the answer to this teaching is found in Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
1. We were reconciled to God while we were his enemies by Christ's death
2. We need to receive the grace of God through faith in Christ.

So both UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION and LIMITED ATONEMENT are wrong.

Good post!!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Talking about your lifestyle in general. walking in perfection?

I keep trying to tell you something here. Why should it matter to you if I am living above sin on a consistent basis? Would it change Gods evaluation of you if I am a hypocrite? If I have sin in my life? How would that affect the teachings of Yeshua Christ?

If I do have sin in my life how does that affect you? Shouldn't your focus and faith be WHAT DOES YESHUA SAY ABOUT OVERCOMING SIN?

Once you get that revelation it wont matter to you if someone else has sin in their life. You will throw yourself into striving to make sure that YOU YOURSELF enter the kingdom.

[Praxeas]

Blah Blah Blah

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Blah Blah Blah

??

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I keep trying to tell you something here. Why should it matter to you if I am living above sin on a consistent basis? Would it change Gods evaluation of you if I am a hypocrite? If I have sin in my life? How would that affect the teachings of Yeshua Christ?

If I do have sin in my life how does that affect you? Shouldn't your focus and faith be WHAT DOES YESHUA SAY ABOUT OVERCOMING SIN?

Once you get that revelation it wont matter to you if someone else has sin in their life. You will throw yourself into striving to make sure that YOU YOURSELF enter the kingdom.

I got your point nite sure you are getting mine. I am already in the kingdom.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

I got your point nite sure you are getting mine. I am already in the kingdom.

A Christian experiences the first fruits of the kingdom experience through the Holy Spirit baptism. Not one Christian has in full experience entered into the Kingdom.

1 Cor. 15:50-53

50Now this I say , brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.51Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Anyone still having flesh and blood has not entered the full revelation of the Kingdom 0f God.

Now if someone thinks they have should they not be living above sin? What a strange thought that one could be in the Kingdom in full manifestation and still be bound to sin!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Sorry, but you did not even respond to the scripture I quoted (2 Cor 5:20), yet you say I contradict myself.
To reply you though,

Let's look at it again:

2 Cor 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Paul TAUGHT:
1. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself (not counting men's sins against them)
2. Be ye reconciled to God

This shows God did something AND we also NEED to do something in response.
Paul DID NOT just stop at "God has reconciled us"


Our maturity?? How can an UNBELIEVER mature in Christ when he has not even be clothed with Christ's righteousness??


Again, 2 Cor 5:20 answers this plainly. It teaches that God reconciled us to himself while we were his enemies (not counting our sins against us), yes.
But then goes further and says "Be ye reconciled to God.
You seem to ignoring the part that says "Be ye reconciled to God"

Don't you see how you contradict yourself?? If someone who has not believed in Christ has the same justification as someone who has believed in Christ, then, why should the unbeliever go through a "fire"??


Whether the fire is symbolic or not, why should an unbeliever go thorugh a "fire" that a believer does NOT have to go through since they have both received justification from God??

"Be ye reconciled to God". What do you think this is??? This is the process of one coming to maturity in Christ, this is the fire. And don't forget, I said all will be "...salted with fire..." Both believer and unbeliever, to complete right relationship to God. A believer starts the process here and now, unbeliever's may in the future hear, or in the age to come. Both will come to maturity thru God's dealing with man thru the ages. So, you can drop the argument that I am saying believers don't go thru the fire. God deals with believers thru the problems and issues of this age. "All will be salted with fire."