Does Your Church Have Formal Membership?

[The Lemon]

I suppose I don't have an issue either way..formal or informal. I am probably a little jaded from past experiences, but I do distinctly remember the membership agreement and Articles of Incorporation being used to pigeonhole folks at my old assembly when thigs went south...at that point I refused to sign my name to anything.

To this day I would most likely have issues with "signing" anything in regards to a membership agreement - mostly because of what I experienced in the past...and I may be wrong for that stand.

The system in and of itself just leaves me scratching my head though. In my life the church has been more of a place of social gathering in regards to real personal relationships among the membership. We would see each other and even weep and pray for one another in service, but then never see or talk again until the next service. I have had beeter relationships with family and friends outside OP then in...but that is just my experience.

When I fulfilled all my obligations, both with finances and time (I was a minister), most of what I had left was my secular job. Life mostly consisted of work and Church with very little left for anything else. The organized system was like a giant vacuum that sucked my time and money with very little return on investment, and even less understanding when I wanted to allocate more of my time to family or God forbid...myself.

I realize this sounds very negative, but I am trying to be honest and maybe a little too transparent. The good believe it or not, does outweigh the bad...and to be honest the biggest struggle for me at this point is trying to find a sense of balance so I can be obedient but not burn out...that has been difficult at best.

Wow...I just hijacked this thread! Sorry!

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Acerrak, could I present to you a hypothetical, but very prominent scenario? Happens all the time. A church needs to build, and will be taking on a significant amount of debt to do so. For this to happen, the pastor will be providing the details in a business session of just how large the loan would have to be, the payments, what the budget of the church would need to be to do so and still continue other ministries, etc. This vote is a huge deal.

Do you want someone who doesn't even support the church with any finances, isn't faithful in their attendance, and doesn't support outreach able to have the same vote as you who supports with your finances, gives of your time, and is involved? I certainly don't... It's just not fair.

And if a pastor just says, before we vote... only those who truly are faithful in your support and finances are allowed to vote, but no official list is kept.... how are we sure everyone is honest? Because if someone won't give to the work of God, they're probably not above lying so that they can vote either.

If there's a better way to remedy situations like this then I'm all for it, but I've not seen any other way than keeping rolls, membership lists, and finance records....

my friend just left the church of God 2 maybe 3 years ago. He was a liscensed preacher. He started his own little church out of his living room. It grew, he then moved it into a double wide trailor they rented. It grew. He Now has a fully built building, that had a opening dedication ceremony that started a 2 week revival.

Not only does he run a church out of it but a Non denominational christian school, all supported by the members of the church.

He will tell you the same thing he told me. I dont care about your money. I prayed about it. God Blessed me said he wanted it built and im not gonna worry about the bills. This Is God's not mine. he doesnt push tithes. he doesnt give the ye old will be cursed if you dont. He prints out the financial records every three months for people to see what the church is buying and how much money is incomming. he doesnt list names of individuals who give or how much they give etc etc.

Im just telling you it works, and he will treat a person just as good as any other person regardless of there giving or not, cause he doesnt care about there money he cares about them.

So brother I have a really good example of this cause i left the upci to go be with him. I call it faith.

but in your case with what you told me about your parents. you said there not allowed to teach. lets say that your father was called to teach and he approached the elders. according to you he couldnt cause he doesnt have a active list of record for tithes. effectivly stopping the man from doing the will of God in that body of believers.

That is what makes modern day churches just a club with a premium fee. effectively quinching the Work of the Spirit cause people didnt meet mans standards....

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Acerrak, could I present to you a hypothetical, but very prominent scenario? Happens all the time. A church needs to build, and will be taking on a significant amount of debt to do so. For this to happen, the pastor will be providing the details in a business session of just how large the loan would have to be, the payments, what the budget of the church would need to be to do so and still continue other ministries, etc. This vote is a huge deal.

Do you want someone who doesn't even support the church with any finances, isn't faithful in their attendance, and doesn't support outreach able to have the same vote as you who supports with your finances, gives of your time, and is involved? I certainly don't... It's just not fair.

And if a pastor just says, before we vote... only those who truly are faithful in your support and finances are allowed to vote, but no official list is kept.... how are we sure everyone is honest? Because if someone won't give to the work of God, they're probably not above lying so that they can vote either.

If there's a better way to remedy situations like this then I'm all for it, but I've not seen any other way than keeping rolls, membership lists, and finance records....

How do you know others aren't faithful in their giving? And why is the Pastor placing conditions on voting only if their faithful in giving? And is this just your opinion if people don't give what YOU think they should give, they are probably liars as well?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

I've been shocked at how few OP churches even have these formal of requirements, but to be honest, I'm surprised at how few of them ever have business sessions, vote over major decisions, or even publish a church financial statement....

Why bother to have business meetings when a saint already knows that the tithe goes to the Pastor? (tic) In once church I attended, a financial statement was attached to a door in a room. The tithes were not a part of that financial statement that I can remember. Once somebody asked the Pastor how much tithe did he receive. His answer was something to the effect of none of your business. He refused to tell the people what he received. That church split soon after.

The pastor gets to decide what the money is spent and when it gets spent apart from monthly church obligations.

I've seen a couple church splits. Both of them were over the tithe money and how much authority a man can make claim over people.

If you want to try to change things, I'll pray for you. But I doubt that the apostolic churches, at least in this area will embrace your great idea of what the tithe should cover. You may be in for a rough ride.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by acerrak

my friend just left the church of God 2 maybe 3 years ago. He was a liscensed preacher. He started his own little church out of his living room. It grew, he then moved it into a double wide trailor they rented. It grew. He Now has a fully built building, that had a opening dedication ceremony that started a 2 week revival.

Not only does he run a church out of it but a Non denominational christian school, all supported by the members of the church.

He will tell you the same thing he told me. I dont care about your money. I prayed about it. God Blessed me said he wanted it built and im not gonna worry about the bills. This Is God's not mine. he doesnt push tithes. he doesnt give the ye old will be cursed if you dont. He prints out the financial records every three months for people to see what the church is buying and how much money is incomming. he doesnt list names of individuals who give or how much they give etc etc.

Im just telling you it works, and he will treat a person just as good as any other person regardless of there giving or not, cause he doesnt care about there money he cares about them.

So brother I have a really good example of this cause i left the upci to go be with him. I call it faith.

but in your case with what you told me about your parents. you said there not allowed to teach. lets say that your father was called to teach and he approached the elders. according to you he couldnt cause he doesnt have a active list of record for tithes. effectivly stopping the man from doing the will of God in that body of believers.

That is what makes modern day churches just a club with a premium fee. effectively quinching the Work of the Spirit cause people didnt meet mans standards....

You don't know how happy this post makes my heart feel. I am happy to know that people give with a cheerful heart to obey God and that there are pastors out there that don't force the money out of people.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Why bother to have business meetings when a saint already knows that the tithe goes to the Pastor? (tic) In once church I attended, a financial statement was attached to a door in a room. The tithes were not a part of that financial statement that I can remember. Once somebody asked the Pastor how much tithe did he receive. His answer was something to the effect of none of your business. He refused to tell the people what he received. That church split soon after.

The pastor gets to decide what the money is spent and when it gets spent apart from monthly church obligations.

I've seen a couple church splits. Both of them were over the tithe money and how much authority a man can make claim over people.

If you want to try to change things, I'll pray for you. But I doubt that the apostolic churches, at least in this area will embrace your great idea of what the tithe should cover. You may be in for a rough ride.

In most churches, the tithe does not go to the pastor, that only happens in predominantly apostolic churches, and not even all of them... The majority of churches, the tithe goes into the operations of the ministry (the church) and is what the budget is based off of... the pastor gets a salary out of that tithe.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by Cindy

How do you know others aren't faithful in their giving? And why is the Pastor placing conditions on voting only if their faithful in giving? And is this just your opinion if people don't give what YOU think they should give, they are probably liars as well?

That's the very question I'm posing... without financial giving records provided, you have no way of knowing... just people's word if they are faithful in their financial support of that church in my hypothetical scenario. And if you're trying to go off their word...well, if someone would be dishonest enough to not support their local church financially, wouldn't they possibly be open to lying just so they can vote?

And I never said the faithfulness had to be in giving only.... it's also attendance records, involvement in outreach.... those are all usually conditions to be a member "in good standing" which is usally required to be able to vote.... they can attend all they want, worship all they want, but just may not be a member in good standing if they aren't faithful in all those ways, not just giving.

Also, I never said the giving amount was determined by the pastor, or me... the faithfulness is shown by is there a consistent record of giving... of course based on how often they receive pay. And their faithfulness in attendance is set by whomever sets up the bylaws by what constitutes a "member in good standing".

To your question about giving faithfulness being ONE of the requirements to be able to vote???? I would think it's common sense. Why should someone be able to vote on the financial future, and especially obligations of a new mortgage, etc when they don't even support that church financially? You think they should be able to vote to put the church in hok with a loan when they don't even give to that church????? really?

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

To your question about giving faithfulness being ONE of the requirements to be able to vote???? I would think it's common sense. Why should someone be able to vote on the financial future, and especially obligations of a new mortgage, etc when they don't even support that church financially? You think they should be able to vote to put the church in hok with a loan when they don't even give to that church????? really?

because they are in the body of Christ, and Christ did not limit the votes of the homeless and the beggars that he sent the apostles out to preach

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

In most churches, the tithe does not go to the pastor, that only happens in predominantly apostolic churches, and not even all of them... The majority of churches, the tithe goes into the operations of the ministry (the church) and is what the budget is based off of... the pastor gets a salary out of that tithe.

I am agreeing with this concept Brother Robbins. You are preaching to the choir here. I'm just saying that in my region, it don't work that way in UPC churches or OP independent churches.

I am learning that in other regions of the USA, UPC do some things different. Maybe that is why I feel such a darkness in my area because of the money and control Pastor's place upon people. No freedom in the Spirit because of carnal control of resources and of human beings.

News of a revival would get around quickly, especially when there is a Holy Ghost move of God. I have not heard of one in this area for decades.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

In most churches, the tithe does not go to the pastor, that only happens in predominantly apostolic churches, and not even all of them... The majority of churches, the tithe goes into the operations of the ministry (the church) and is what the budget is based off of... the pastor gets a salary out of that tithe.

We had a very conservative pastor when we were in the UPC and even he didn't claim that all tithes belonged to him. There have been some posters HERE who have made that statement though.

It must simply be a geographic thing. Here in the Phoenix area there are quite a few apostolic churches (UPC and other) and most have been a pretty consistent size for several decades. The only churn are members shifting from one group to another -some would say "sheep stealing". In fact the whole thing reminds me somewhat of a giant game or RISK, only every church is a country and no one really wins... the borders just keep moving back and forth a few feet slowly over time. Money is always one of the BIG issues. The LOVE of it is truly the root of all evil.