Official Stance of UPC?

[NorCal]

Being a good and righteous person does not make you Spirit Filled. If do, you have say that the Dali Lama who preforms good works is "Spirit Filled".

Good works does not save, only True Faith (obedience) in Jesus Christ can save.

Those that are choranic seekers are most likely seeking it for the wrong reason. Not to truly repent, but to only save themselves from hell. Remember, that one must "Love the LORD with all thine heart, mind, and strength". Love is the keyword.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Being a good and righteous person does not make you Spirit Filled. If do, you have say that the Dali Lama who preforms good works is "Spirit Filled".

Good works does not save, only True Faith (obedience) in Jesus Christ can save.

Those that are choranic seekers are most likely seeking it for the wrong reason. Not to truly repent, but to only save themselves from hell. Remember, that one must "Love the LORD with all thine heart, mind, and strength". Love is the keyword.

man is incapable of this love unless God instills it in you. remember were all sinners, evil at heart.

you were just a sinner wanting to save yourself from hell as well.
you dont come to God with this kind of love, you didnt stop sinning for you went to church.

Infact you was nothing but a broke down ragedy shack with a condemed sign hanging on the front door. You had cracks in the ceiling, holes in the walls, sin stains on the floor, and a whole bunch of rats infesting and plaguing your life.

This was the condition of any sinner that God purchased with his blood. He didnt start rebuilding your life and turning you into a new temple of God until after His spirit intered your life.

The Good works, or fruits is a great way of seeing the Spirit of God clean house. Drunkards get dry, drugies go free, porno addicts, fall in love with there wifes again, it all happened after they gave there life over to Jesus. Its Gods power who changed us, not ours.

God calls us, He seeks us. His Spirit draws us.

Good works comes as a outward expression of a inner faith. whoever said we was saved by our works? and i would also suggest romans chapter 4. For we are justified by faith alone. and from this faith we will have outward works. they go hand and hand

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Being a good and righteous person does not make you Spirit Filled. If do, you have say that the Dali Lama who preforms good works is "Spirit Filled".

Good works does not save, only True Faith (obedience) in Jesus Christ can save.

Those that are choranic seekers are most likely seeking it for the wrong reason. Not to truly repent, but to only save themselves from hell. Remember, that one must "Love the LORD with all thine heart, mind, and strength". Love is the keyword.

Why is it Performance based religious people talk about salvation by faith then they make a ademdume by adding in perethisis (obedience) they have just contradicted themselves because then they are going to list a set of works or actions one has to do to be saved. Ie repent, baptized in water, speak in tongues, live a holy life by their standards.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Why is it Performance based religious people talk about salvation by faith then they make a ademdume by adding in perethisis (obedience) they have just contradicted themselves because then they are going to list a set of works or actions one has to do to be saved. Ie repent, baptized in water, speak in tongues, live a holy life by their standards.

in one of david bernards book, and i cant remember which one.

But i mean this is what theology does to the word of God. he specifically bends scripture to suit his own doctrinal needs.

and he states for we are saved by grace through faith, but what is that faith. the faith is our response to the Gospel, so in essence the saving grace of God is based upon our faith responce to Gods word, so one must Follow ACTS 2:38 Repent be baptised, and filled with the spirit with evidence of speaking in other tounges. This is the true faith responce to the gospel and thus how we are saved by faith.

[Pendragon]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Why is it Performance based religious people talk about salvation by faith then they make a ademdume by adding in perethisis (obedience) they have just contradicted themselves because then they are going to list a set of works or actions one has to do to be saved. Ie repent, baptized in water, speak in tongues, live a holy life by their standards.

John 7:37-39
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 2:37-38
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-6
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

**

Seems pretty clear to me you have to do a couple things in order to receive the Holy Spirit. I guess the question for you is, do you believe the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, or is it just a bonus feature?

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

John 7:37-39
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 2:37-38
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-6
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

**

Seems pretty clear to me you have to do a couple things in order to receive the Holy Spirit. I guess the question for you is, do you believe the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, or is it just a bonus feature?

John said i baptise you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me who was before me will baptize you with the Holy ghost

[Pendragon]

Acts 8:36
36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”

[Pendragon]

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

[Sabby]

The emphasis in that verse is the word "AND", not "Water". We're all born of water: "that which is flesh is flesh" explains it pretty clearly. Any other verses used to support water baptism as being "born again" are used in support of Jn 3:5, when that verse itself isn't even speaking of water baptism!
Note: I didn't say, "You shouldn't be baptised", or "If you are a believer, being baptized isn't necessary". But that does NOT mean that water baptism is the "water" referred to by Jesus Christ in Jn 3:5.
Water baptism was a part of the original message of the gospel of Jesus Christ (eg: Acts 2:38; chapters 10, 19, etc), but this command was given to people that had ALREADY believed in God; incidentally, I don't read where Cornelius repented, was baptized and got the Holy Ghost. I see where he was already a God-fearer
Apostolics need to put on the mind of the apostles in their message. Paul was accused of preaching the "way they (the Jews) call heresy". His message was simple. There is a resurrection, and Jesus is the the resurrected One that through His risen life, we may have by grace through faith, a resurrection as well. It is conditional. It is based upon faith that leads one to repent (reconsider) their lives previously opposed to God.

Apostolics have complicated the gospel by making a verse (Acts 2:38) the focal point instead of preaching Jesus, or as Paul put it, "Christ and him crucified".

[Pendragon]

Wow, seriously?

What you are saying is that Jesus said, 'Hey Nic, unless you're a human that is born, you can't enter the Kingdom of God.'

I think it goes without saying that unless you exist you can't make it to heaven, and I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't so dimwitted as to state the blatantly obvious. You should seriously rethink your position on that verse.