Is Bin Laden in a burnin hell?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes. Some versions must not contain references to hell fire.

No, no. It's a timing thing. MiketheDisc holds to a teaching akin to "Soul Sleep." In this scenario bin Laden is unconscious and unaware of anything until the time of the End when all the dead shall rise in Judgment.

MiketheDisc still gets to throw the old terrorist into the flames of everlasting torment, but he just has to wait for a bit. Whereas you appear to be one of those modern "I want it now" types who throws the sinner into the flames as soon as their pulse stops.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Light

I'm not implying any thing. You made a statement and I just asked for scriptures.

It's just that I thought it was obvious and wondered why you would ask for scriptures. Most who agree with present hellfire torment would not ask for scriptures, is all.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

No, no. It's a timing thing. MiketheDisc holds to a teaching akin to "Soul Sleep." In this scenario bin Laden is unconscious and unaware of anything until the time of the End when all the dead shall rise in Judgment.

MiketheDisc still gets to throw the old terrorist into the flames of everlasting torment, but he just has to wait for a bit. Whereas you appear to be one of those modern "I want it now" types who throws the sinner into the flames as soon as their pulse stops.

LOL.Well, I do not want anything, personally, as that is not the issue to me. It's what the Word says that concerns me. But the reason I mentioned bibles without hell fire is because hell is something present that is later thrown into the lake of fire. And since hell is present, and since hell is said to have "fire" then soul sleep is not possible. It seems soul sleep proposes that presently there is only unconscious sleep, and then the lake of fire. But what about hell fire and its occupants being put into the lake of fire later? How can hell have fire and be thrown in the lake of fire later if there is soul sleep? Does the soul sleep in hell fire? Does the soul sleep now, go to hell fire later and then even later still into the lake of fire? Makes no sense to me.

I basically agree with what David Norris said in Sam's quote.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

Well, I don't think we'll know until we talk to the Navy SEALs that were in that room.

If he was Allahu Akbaring before he was shot, then he probably died a Muslim. If he yelled 'Save me Jesus!' , then maybe he met a missionary or received a revelation and was converted. It's been a while since his last video, you know. Perhaps he was saved since then...? Slim chances, but hey it's possible.

Ok, on the subject of Hell - how does Luke 16:19-31 relate to the afterlife? Looking at this story, I don't believe this is metaphorical or allegorical. I think Jesus is talking about something that really happened.

You'll certainly find a lot of support for your interpretation, here. However, this story is told in a broader context. To get that context we must go back the beginning of Jesus' speech here - to Luke 14:1 and following.

Here we find Jesus entering the house of a "chief Pharisee" to eat bread. There is something of a large crowd who have been invited and in accordance with the custom of the times, the wealthy and influential people sought out the "chief seats" to display their own importance.

In this context, Jesus tells a series of parables. Luke clearly tells us that these stories are parables in Luke 14:7 and Luke 15:3. In all, Jesus tells:

The Parable of the Man Who Made a Great Feast, (Luke 14:7-24)
The Parable of the Building of the Tower (Luke 14:29-29)
The Parable of the King Going to War (Luke 14:31-33)
The Parable of the Salt Which Lost It's Savor (Luke 14:34-35)
The Parable of the Ninety And Nine Sheep, (Luke 15:1-7)
The Parable of the Lost Coin, (Luke 15:8-10)
The Parable of the Prodigal Son, (Luke 15:11-32)
The Parable of the Unjust Steward, (Luke 16:1-13)
The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, (Luke 16:14-31).

He then finishes it off with the "Millstone Around His Neck" and "Faith As a Grain of a Mustard Seed" analogies. All of this was a single discourse given in the house of one of the "Chief Pharisees." Some commentators have speculated that this may have been the house of Lazarus.

Luke doesn't say that Jesus was in Bethany at this time, however, this feast was had while Jesus was on His way to Jerusalem (Luke 13:22) and He usually took the route through Bethany to reach Jerusalem or when traveling from Jerusalem (Luke 19:29 and Luke 24:50).

The poignancy of using the name "Lazarus" for the beggar in the story becomes clearer if we see the Lord telling the story in the audience of a "rich young ruler" or "Chief Pharisee" named Lazarus who is about to die himself.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

LOL.Well, I do not want anything, personally, as that is not the issue to me. It's what the Word says that concerns me. But the reason I mentioned bibles without hell fire is because hell is something present that is later thrown into the lake of fire. And since hell is present, and since hell is said to have "fire" then soul sleep is not possible. It seems soul sleep proposes that presently there is only unconscious sleep, and then the lake of fire. But what about hell fire and its occupants being put into the lake of fire later? How can hell have fire and be thrown in the lake of fire later if there is soul sleep? Does the soul sleep in hell fire? Does the soul sleep now, go to hell fire later and then even later still into the lake of fire? Makes no sense to me.

I basically agree with what David Norris said in Sam's quote.

Perhaps the Lord is trying to deal with you on the issue of the supposed "immortal soul" doctrine? After all you always start out saying "I have neither the time or interest to discuss soul sleep".

Then you proceed to send forth page after page of what you think refutes the doctrine. So you must have both the time and interest or you would not do what you do.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Perhaps the Lord is trying to deal with you on the issue of the supposed "immortal soul" doctrine? After all you always start out saying "I have neither the time or interest to discuss soul sleep".

Then you proceed to send forth page after page of what you think refutes the doctrine. So you must have both the time and interest or you would not do what you do.

Lord trying to deal with me? lol. I am only answering people's questions. And to address your issue, death is not non-existence, once again.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

This would indicate we enter directly into some sort of reward after we die - we don't just drift off into sleep until the judgement day. Apparently we do enter into either torment or rest, and we are aware that we are in torment or rest.

Two shots (or even a single shot) to the head probably isn't comparable to "drifting off to sleep. And, if one supports the "Soul Sleep" view, then the individual who receives those shots will, for all intents and purposes, experience a sudden death and then their next conscious experience will be whatever awaits them in "The Beyond."

They will not have experienced the years intervening between the time of their death and the Time of the End. They will experience a sensation of immediate judgment... or whatever awaits them.

Originally Posted by Pendragon

Obviously this isn't the Lake of Fire. Revelations 20:14,15 say Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire... not entirely sure what this means, but it indicates they are separate from the Lake of Fire, and that chronologically the Lake of Fire comes afterwards. So it sounds to me like sinners die, enter Hell (torment), are judged after the Second Coming, and then those whose names are not found in the Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire (along with Death and Hell).

If we want to take "Abraham's Bosom" literally, then the only "fire" would be if the old saint was suffering indigestion. If we want to lift this story and rip it apart from its context of surrounding parables, then we must maintain a literal approach to every aspect of the story... in other words, even Abraham himself was within his own corpse. I don't quite see that. Better to keep the story in the context where Luke himself placed it.

... just imho, of course.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Two shots (or even a single shot) to the head probably isn't comparable to "drifting off to sleep. And, if one supports the "Soul Sleep" view, then the individual who receives those shots will, for all intents and purposes, experience a sudden death and then their next conscious experience will be whatever awaits them in "The Beyond."

How does a present hell and future lake of fire fit into that?

If we want to take "Abraham's Bosom" literally, then the only "fire" would be if the old saint was suffering indigestion. If we want to lift this story and rip it apart from its context of surrounding parables, then we must maintain a literal approach to every aspect of the story... in other words, even Abraham himself was within his own corpse. I don't quite see that. Better to keep the story in the context where Luke himself placed it.

... just imho, of course.

Abraham's bosom would not literally be in side his body. Someone in a person's bosom is someone in their embrace.

Generally, Jesus did not use myths to relate truth, as David Norris noted. He gave a general picture of an actual place of torment, using emotional thoughts like Abraham's bosom, or embrace.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

How does a present hell and future lake of fire fit into that?

The "present hell" of the New Testament (and even the Old -sheol) is "The Grave." "Hades" in both Hellenistic and New Testament thought is the abode of all the dead. There is no "Lake of Fire" experience until the devil and his angels (and the other damned souls) are cast into it at The Time of the End.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Abraham's bosom would not literally be in side his body. Someone in a person's bosom is someone in their embrace.

Then the "great gulf" might be his sternum? Or maybe it's one of his pockets in his cloak where he keeps his beard pick? Trying to work this out literally causes some problems, imho.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Generally, Jesus did not use myths to relate truth, as David Norris noted. He gave a general picture of an actual place of torment, using emotional thoughts like Abraham's bosom, or embrace.

I never brought up myths and neither does Luke. Luke said... "and then spake He a parable to them saying..." If David Norris wishes to contest Luke's assertions, then he's free to do so.

Again, The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is part of a long discourse of parables given by Jesus while having dinner at the home of one of the "Chief Pharisees."

Concerning our Lord's overall approach to speaking with the Pharisees, we read:

"Unto you (His disciples) it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." (Luke 8:23).

Consider also Matthew 13:34. For some people, "truth" was never revealed to them at all except by way of a parable. Literalism will tie you into knots and finally add a millstone to your burdens. I find that it is much better to simply take to Word in its own context and not try and build doctrines upon analogies and parables.

Get to the heart of the story. What truths are being plainly revealed by the story?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The "present hell" of the New Testament (and even the Old -sheol) is "The Grave." "Hades" in both Hellenistic and New Testament thought is the abode of all the dead. There is no "Lake of Fire" experience until the devil and his angels (and the other damned souls) are cast into it at The Time of the End.

The grave is part of the picture, yes. But Jesus spoke of hell fire, and fire of hell. Hell is more than the grave, I believe. How does that fit into the grave picture?

Then the "great gulf" might be his sternum? Or maybe it's one of his pockets in his cloak where he keeps his beard pick? Trying to work this out literally causes some problems, imho.

No. The gulf would be between the overall realm of those embraced and of those in gehenna flames. Sheol is Hades. The OVERALL REALM of the dead, I believe. Before the cross the saints of the old covenants were not suffering but yet in Hades/Sheol. Since the cross, the saints were made righteous by Christ's atonement and removed out of Sheol/Hades and lifted into glory. Gehenna remained. Therefore, hell is only associated with gehenna fire and the wicked since then.

I never brought up myths and neither does Luke. Luke said... "and then spake He a parable to them saying..." If David Norris wishes to contest Luke's assertions, then he's free to do so.

Norris noted something you did not... he said Christ did not use myths in his parables either. His parables were always of actual circumstances.

Again, The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is part of a long discourse of parables given by Jesus while having dinner at the home of one of the "Chief Pharisees."

I agree the parable is NOT ABOUT HELL. But it is also not a non-actuality as well.

Concerning our Lord's overall approach to speaking with the Pharisees, we read:

"Unto you (His disciples) it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." (Luke 8:23).

Consider also Matthew 13:34. For some people, "truth" was never revealed to them at all except by way of a parable. Literalism will tie you into knots and finally add a millstone to your burdens. I find that it is much better to simply take to Word in its own context and not try and build doctrines upon analogies and parables.

Get to the heart of the story. What truths are being plainly revealed by the story?

I agree we can be overly literal and the rich man and Lazarus is not meant to be understood as literal in every detail. However, the general concept of fire and hell is real, since Jesus would not use parables of circumstances that did not nor could not actually exist. Please show me where there is a parable of a non-existent circumstance in other cases Jesus spoke of. I can find none.