Submit Yourselves!

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

...when a wife submits, honors and reverence her husband then she can expect him to love her as Christ loved the church.

That version sounds like quid pro quo.

"This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." (Ephesians 5:32)

To love is to submit.

The very act of loving another is an act of submission.

[noeticknight]

As a matter of fact, in about 3 days (count it down), Noeticknight will be fulfilling his obligation of "annual submission" of giving to his bride on the highly commericialized day of St. Valentines.

Well, the steak dinner part this weekend is probably more or less "mutual submission."

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

This what Paul said:

Eph 5:22-24

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
KJV

Eph 5:22-23

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
KJV

verse 23 tells why a wife must submit to the husband and it has nothing to to do with culture.

True, age and experience brings wisdom to a discussion, but never changes Gods standard. Not an old foggy but been married 15 years.

Got to go to work, check in later.

Submission in marriage, law, and Religion in this Country is different than other Countries. A woman submitting to her husband in Israel is far different than a woman submitting to her husband in the United States, and Culture is the reason.

An easy study will reveal, the wedding ceremony, betrothal, and the Jewish home have several customs and traditions that we don't follow in Christendom. The obedience factor of women has also evolved in Israel, as modernization of the World has caused the removal of many Ancient and mid-evil dogmas that hinged on discrimination or abuse;

1. While there was no death penalty in Hebrew law for property crimes, adultery was a capital offence for both participants.

2. Marriage and children were necessary to have a fulfilled life. A childless woman could call herself a mother by giving her maid-servant to her husband as a second wife (assuming, of course, the maid-servant did indeed produce a child).

3. A widow had the right to marry her husband’s brother if he lived in the same town.

4. Polygamy was permitted but uncommon.

5. Divorce was easy for a man and impossible for a woman.

6. Childlessness was the most common reason for divorce.

7. The woman moved to the husband’s home and family.

This link reveals the Customs and Culture of a Jewish wedding, showing a completely different obedience and custom level than our own.

http://www.jewish-history.com/minhag.htm

Like I said earlier, submission in marriage has even changed in this Country over the last 100 years, and that includes submission in the Church. This is where experience applies, helping people to understand the boundaries of obedience via trial and error.

I've been married 30 years, and when I came into the Church in the 70's there was a very strong message to the women; submit and obey your husbands. I watched my Pastor hammer this message into his congregation, but when he fell into adultery, losing his wife and family, I realized he was imbalanced in his approach by demanding obedience.

I began to understand that I had been too hard on my wife because the climate in our Church had been tempered by an inexperienced Leader, so I made adjustments that have helped our marriage to stay alive and healthy, and experience was my teacher. I remember being married 15 years, and 15 years later I’m a different man, father, and husband. You will change, Truthseeker.

Back to Paul, you didn't address my points about him changing from the Cultural and Religious act of stoning someone. Nor did you comment on how Paul adjusted to his environment that was another man's home or Country.

[Truthseeker]

Notforsale

We will just have to do that agree to disagree considering their many scriptures that condradict your position.

Past bad experiences, failures of others doesn't change what is written. Were not talking about stonig someone or cultural differences, the man is the head of the women regardless of cultural, social status, race or past experiences.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Notforsale

We will just have to do that agree to disagree considering their many scriptures that condradict your position.

Past bad experiences, failures of others doesn't change what is written. Were not talking about stonig someone or cultural differences, the man is the head of the women regardless of cultural, social status, race or past experiences.

Are you "Tapping" out? If you are, I'll refrain from further posting. Personally, I learn from discussions like this. I'm open to your views.

I've given you Scriptures to consider, but you seem to ignore my position and how I apply them, so your position is contradicted as well. I don’t understand why you don’t acknowledge the fact that we have changed, and why we have changed.

Past bad experiences and failures DO change the "Meaning" of what is written. I think I've been pretty clear about this. I haven't disagreed with a man being the Head of the house, just how it has been applied in Culture, Tradition, and Religion.

The stoning of women today and in the past IS the result of a dominate male agenda, leveraging their Authority and Power over the weaker vessel, a woman.

I'll say it again, "Everything" is a loose cannon and needs definition, and definition comes from experience and the study of other Cultures.

[Truthseeker]

I've been refering to marriage only, bible states clearly about relationship of husband to wife and vice versa, so it's not a tapping out but not something for to really continue to discuss if your not going accept what scripture says on the subject.

Maybe I didn't catch it but i don't recall you posting scripture that proves wives don't have to submit to their husbands. You refer to stoning, but doesn't pertain to Pauls teaching on the subject.

[missourimary]

Truthseeker and NFS, I believe the Bible does talk about submission. Our culture hasn't changed the Word, but cultures do tend to blur the truth of the Word. Jesus came in a time when women were considered property in many ways, but some of the greatest stories in the gospels are about Jesus paying special attention to not only women, but women who by the cultural stances of the time should have been less than nothing. A common girl who was found pregnant before her marriage, Mary Magdeline, the woman at the well, a woman caught in adultery, the Caananite mother of the demon-possessed girl, the woman with the issue of blood. Mary sat at His feet rather than serving with Martha, and He didn't tell her to submit and go cook His food. He allowed her to stay, seated at his feet--a place of learning--at a time when learning was a man's responsibility. Time and again, women were despised in the culture and loved by Jesus. Time and again, women were thought to be out of their place by society and yet Jesus paid special attention to them.

Jesus taught us by action how we should treat one another. Since husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church, they should learn from His examples.

The Bible hasn't changed. Culture hasn't changed the Bible, but the Bible has changed culture. However, according to Mt 19:3-9, some things were given in the law not because they were correct, but "because of the hardness of your hearts". These do change over time, hopefully, as the Bible changes us.

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by missourimary

Truthseeker and NFS, I believe the Bible does talk about submission. Our culture hasn't changed the Word, but cultures do tend to blur the truth of the Word. Jesus came in a time when women were considered property in many ways, but some of the greatest stories in the gospels are about Jesus paying special attention to not only women, but women who by the cultural stances of the time should have been less than nothing. A common girl who was found pregnant before her marriage, Mary Magdeline, the woman at the well, a woman caught in adultery, the Caananite mother of the demon-possessed girl, the woman with the issue of blood. Mary sat at His feet rather than serving with Martha, and He didn't tell her to submit and go cook His food. He allowed her to stay, seated at his feet--a place of learning--at a time when learning was a man's responsibility. Time and again, women were despised in the culture and loved by Jesus. Time and again, women were thought to be out of their place by society and yet Jesus paid special attention to them.

Jesus taught us by action how we should treat one another. Since husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church, they should learn from His examples.

The Bible hasn't changed. Culture hasn't changed the Bible, but the Bible has changed culture. However, according to Mt 19:3-9, some things were given in the law not because they were correct, but "because of the hardness of your hearts". These do change over time, hopefully, as the Bible changes us.

The woman with the issue of blood has always been one of the most "touching" (no pun intended) stories of the Bible in my opinion. It contains so many beautiful axioms of truth. Of course, all of the examples that you've mentioned demonstrate the triumph of faith and the human spirit over adverse situations, Jesus himself being the consummation of those victories.

These are good thoughts, thank you mm!

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

I've been refering to marriage only, bible states clearly about relationship of husband to wife and vice versa, so it's not a tapping out but not something for to really continue to discuss if your not going accept what scripture says on the subject.

Maybe I didn't catch it but i don't recall you posting scripture that proves wives don't have to submit to their husbands. You refer to stoning, but doesn't pertain to Pauls teaching on the subject.

I'm not sure where you're coming from. I gave you a whole list of references regarding marriage and the nature of this relationship in a different Culture than ours, all with no real or defined response. I also told you that I'm not refuting the Scripture on a man being the Head or Leader of the home, just how it applies.

I'll ask you again; Define "Everything". When are lines crossed, which would be considered a man taking advantage of his Authority? When you define “Everything” we will see an opinion which comes from your Culture, Experience, and Religion.

I'll give you a point, blank example of how opinions, ideas, and martial practices have changed. A man comes home and tells his wife, "Honey, I've decided I want to marry another woman." He justifies his stance according to Scripture, as men like Solomon had multiple wives. David, Abraham, Jacob, and countless others in the past had Polygamist marriages, so this man feels his decision is sincere. This man also attends a Religious group that allows such marital Laws.

This also happens in a Country where multiple wives are acceptable and legal. A little over a Century ago, this Country tolerated multiple wives.

Would this wife be required to obey her husband in "Everything", including this decision by her husband? The Bible reinforces his decision, the Culture he is in accepts it, and the Country where they live will allow this to be legal and binding.

Paul's teaching on wives being obedient was a Religious adherence or custom from the Old Testament. You make it sound like this was something new for the Church;

For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Stoning was also an Old Testament law or custom, and Paul seems to be leaving one of these (Stoning) behind, and, for what reason???? Why does Paul give us one and not the other? They (Stoning/Obedience to husbands) are both tied to Marital Laws of the past, yet Paul, hold your breath, has CHANGED!!!!!

Why would Paul change? Why did he move on from something he embraced a short time ago? Obedience has taken on a new form with Paul, and Laws concerning marriage have evolved because the stoning of women (and men) was wrong and didn’t promote anything but the killing of innocent people.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by missourimary

Truthseeker and NFS, I believe the Bible does talk about submission. Our culture hasn't changed the Word, but cultures do tend to blur the truth of the Word. Jesus came in a time when women were considered property in many ways, but some of the greatest stories in the gospels are about Jesus paying special attention to not only women, but women who by the cultural stances of the time should have been less than nothing. A common girl who was found pregnant before her marriage, Mary Magdeline, the woman at the well, a woman caught in adultery, the Caananite mother of the demon-possessed girl, the woman with the issue of blood. Mary sat at His feet rather than serving with Martha, and He didn't tell her to submit and go cook His food. He allowed her to stay, seated at his feet--a place of learning--at a time when learning was a man's responsibility. Time and again, women were despised in the culture and loved by Jesus. Time and again, women were thought to be out of their place by society and yet Jesus paid special attention to them.

Jesus taught us by action how we should treat one another. Since husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church, they should learn from His examples.

The Bible hasn't changed. Culture hasn't changed the Bible, but the Bible has changed culture. However, according to Mt 19:3-9, some things were given in the law not because they were correct, but "because of the hardness of your hearts". These do change over time, hopefully, as the Bible changes us.

That is so true. Jesus himself saw the abuse, and the abuse came from Men who claimed obedience to Law and Scripture.