---> DENVER STANFORD - "I am a Soul Winner"

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Still not getting what you're saying. What's "plain?" The verse in Proverbs has nothing to do with evangelism. The term "soul winning" is not a New Testament phrase, and has nothing to do with soul winning, yet it's used by many groups to infer that it does.

The "lifted up" text: has nothing to with soul winning. Has to do with Jesus' death, and if anything, the power of the cross.

Please explain what is "plain."

Not whether or not the scriptures being used were plain, but the term "soul winner." Does that help? In other words how I understood the term itself. I thought everyone else took it that way too. Then it got complicated from there.........

[MissBrattified]

Regardless of what phrase, label or colloquialism you use to describe converting people to Christianity, we are all instructed to share the Gospel and to bring people to Christ. Being deliberately obtuse about commonly used phrases is pointless, IMO, unless their use is actually anti-scriptural. (Which in this case it is not.)

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Perhaps to be more biblically correct, we should say "soul saving."

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Cindy

Not whether or not the scriptures being used were plain, but the term "soul winner." Does that help? In other words how I understood the term itself. I thought everyone else took it that way too. Then it got complicated from there.........

Yes, but why do we use this term? Many use it because of a text -- which the text has nothing to do with evangelism.

So now that many have taken their liberty to say "winning souls" means "telling people about Jesus" or "fishing for men," the point remains that maybe the term is not as biblical as we thought.

To be honest with the argument, the only other text that challenges this assertion, in the New Testament, is 1 Corinthians 9:19:

Even though I am a free man with no master, I have become a slave to all people to bring many to Christ.

For(Y) though I am free from all,(Z) I have made myself a servant to all, that I might(AA) win more of them.

What Paul has in mind here with the words "winning" is unclear. What is clear is that he is talking about the things he's done for the sake of the Message. He also says that he "saved some" though clearly we don't think Paul actually saved anyone, but is using language to communicate his role in the task. So to be fair, though "winning souls" and Proverbs are not evangelistic, there is some scripture that refers to spreading the Gospel and "winning some."

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Regardless of what phrase, label or colloquialism you use to describe converting people to Christianity, we are all instructed to share the Gospel and to bring people to Christ. Being deliberately obtuse about commonly used phrases is pointless, IMO, unless their use is actually anti-scriptural. (Which in this case it is not.)

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Perhaps to be more biblically correct, we should say "soul saving."

You can call it pointless, I call it a forum. And it's actually a common discussion in most hermeneutic classes as well. So call it being obtuse, whatever. I find it intriguing how much language we use that quite often is either not as scriptural as we thought, or is based on something that never meant what we thought it did. So allow me the opportunity to "geek out," even if you find it "obtuse."

The point is, Proverbs is not about evangelism. The scripture can never mean what it never meant. It's awful to see "soul winning" seminars (a funny subject) that use this as their slogan. It's quite ignorant.

To be more theological, none of us save or convert. It's all the Spirit's work. Paul clarifies this much in Romans. And in James 5, not that it needs further explanation, the "saving" in view here is "preventing" not soteriological.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Yes, but why do we use this term? Many use it because of a text -- which the text has nothing to do with evangelism.

So now that many have taken their liberty to say "winning souls" means "telling people about Jesus" or "fishing for men," the point remains that maybe the term is not as biblical as we thought.

To be honest with the argument, the only other text that challenges this assertion, in the New Testament, is 1 Corinthians 9:19:

Even though I am a free man with no master, I have become a slave to all people to bring many to Christ.

For(Y) though I am free from all,(Z) I have made myself a servant to all, that I might(AA) win more of them.

What Paul has in mind here with the words "winning" is unclear. What is clear is that he is talking about the things he's done for the sake of the Message. He also says that he "saved some" though clearly we don't think Paul actually saved anyone, but is using language to communicate his role in the task. So to be fair, though "winning souls" and Proverbs are not evangelistic, there is some scripture that refers to spreading the Gospel and "winning some."

I really don't know why we term is used. And I agree the scripture in Proverbs are not evangelistic.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Socialite

As far as I can tell this is all the same topic. What does "soul winning" meaning. Then Proverbs is the proof-text. So now we have two questions, as part of a rational flow in a conversation: what is "soul winning" (still left undefined), and what about Proverbs has anything to do with "soul winning?" You do understand the phrase "winning souls" in Proverbs has nothing to do with fish, fishing, evangelism, etc?

Leading to Christ, yes. But "winning souls" brings a new connotation to evangelism and mission that isn't part of the Gospel intention. The Spirit "wins" people (that word brings a competitiveness that is a little trite). We are heralds, proclaiming, discipling, etc... But the Spirit does the real work in evangelism, not us.

Living a Gospel-centered life, we don't have to form "evangelism teams" or have an "outreach director." We are living our lives fully in the mission of God. We are sharing with others. Being sensitive to what the Spirit is already doing. No need to grab a bull horn and tear down people's doors to invite them to "church."

Anyway... the subject is the biblical language of "soul winning." Thus far, you have more of a case to call it "fishing" since Proverbs has nothing to do with evangelism.

In the case of fishing, it's quite clear the language is figurative, and has much to do with the uncertainty of the disciples to leave behind their lives work of fishing.

Apparently you didn't really read what I posted. I didn't reference the verse in proverbs to have anything to do with fishing.

I will try one last time. The term soul winning has to do with capturing men. Jesus, NOT in proverbs, speaks of being fishers of men. We are catching fish (men). Soul we refer to the process as "winning souls". Again I don't see why people are straining at a gnat over this. You think Jesus is upset we used the term "soul winners"?

Jesus was to make them fishers of MEN. Capturing MEN. You can use your own imagination but the church was not an army that took slaves like the Israelites, rather they were to lead people to the gospel of Christ and ultimately to Christ

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I didn't realize you were taking that angle.

The verse is not a "soul-winning" verse, still. In fact, the term "winning souls" is not even found in the NT.

But you are right in what you said at the end there. Reminds me of Paul: I planted, Apollos watered, God gives the increase."

This is what I mean by straining at a gnat,. The term isn't found in the NT....so what?

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Regardless of what phrase, label or colloquialism you use to describe converting people to Christianity, we are all instructed to share the Gospel and to bring people to Christ. Being deliberately obtuse about commonly used phrases is pointless, IMO, unless their use is actually anti-scriptural. (Which in this case it is not.)

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Perhaps to be more biblically correct, we should say "soul saving."

First of all, no one is being "Obtuse" here. Secondly, it absolutely IS important. I, for one, am sick and tired of isolated verses being grabbed and used incorrectly. This practice has been used repeatedly to deceive, mislead, and fall into areas of false practices. There are entire Christian denominations built on isolated verses that have been completely taken out of context.

I think it's horrific that anyone "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (that SI what's happening here) would be chastised for doing so and told they're being "Obtuse" and that their comments are pointless.

Sad.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Cindy

I really don't know why we term is used. And I agree the scripture in Proverbs are not evangelistic.

The term is used because we want to try to convert souls to Jesus. It's amazing to me how people get all wrangled up in semantics over a phrase

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by Socialite

You can call it pointless, I call it a forum. And it's actually a common discussion in most hermeneutic classes as well. So call it being obtuse, whatever. I find it intriguing how much language we use that quite often is either not as scriptural as we thought, or is based on something that never meant what we thought it did. So allow me the opportunity to "geek out," even if you find it "obtuse."

The point is, Proverbs is not about evangelism. The scripture can never mean what it never meant. It's awful to see "soul winning" seminars (a funny subject) that use this as their slogan. It's quite ignorant.

To be more theological, none of us save or convert. It's all the Spirit's work. Paul clarifies this much in Romans. And in James 5, not that it needs further explanation, the "saving" in view here is "preventing" not soteriological.

Here's another Proverb that gets horrifically misused...."Buy the truth and sell it not." Oh yes, let's hold onto this precious truth of the mighty God in Christ. Uhhhh.....nope, not what it means. Not even close.