Where is the five fold ministry?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

yes i knew a FEW. they maynot be in every assembly ,should be , but maybot be . that would be according to how big ther congregation was and how they have been taught as well to pursue after callings and gifts!~

sam would you not say the 5 fold would be callings not gifts? just curious ..

I believe that the reasoning behind there not being a full compliment of the ministries put in place for the church (even multiple people operating in the various ministries) would rest very heavily on teaching rather than church size.

The reason I feel this way is because in the days of the apostles most all the congregations were small groups meeting in homes and yet they had these ministries in operation.

The view that ministry is a vocation is one cause for this. The church is left with the view that there are those who are "in the ministry" and then there are the rest of us rather than seeing ministry as something we all do to and for one another as well as the understanding that these words used (apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher & evangelist) should be viewed less as "what we are" and viewed more often as "what we do".

Mindset issues can shut down the birthing & nurturing of a church full of ministers.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

yes i knew a FEW. they maynot be in every assembly ,should be , but maybot be . that would be according to how big ther congregation was and how they have been taught as well to pursue after callings and gifts!~

sam would you not say the 5 fold would be callings not gifts? just curious ..

I think we use the terms interchangeably at times. In Ephesians chapter 4 where what we call the 5 fold (some just see 4 there combining pastors and teachers) ministry is listed it speaks of Christ's ascension and then His giving gifts unto men. Then the 5 ministries or callings are listed. So it appears they are gifts there although some say the gifts are not the offices but the men and women who fulfill those offices. Then in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 where Paul speaks of spiritual gifts he calls them gifts, administrations, and operations in verses 4-6. Then in verses 8-10 he lists 9 of them: word of wisdom; word of knowledge; faith; gifts of healing; working of miracles; prophecy; discerning of spirits; tongues (languages); and interpretation of tongues. Then in verses 28-30 he mentions: apostles; prophets; teachers; miracles; gifts of healings; helps; governments; tongues; workers of miracles; and interpretation. Then in Romans 12:6-8 he lists: prophecy; ministry (serving); exhortation; giving; ruling (we usually think of this as leadership or administration); and showing mercy.

I don't think we can limit the gifts of the Spirit to the 9 in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Read Ephesians 4

Yes read Ephesians 4, where does it say that those are official offices with authority in this passaged of scripture? All it say is that God gave... for the equiping of the saints for the work of the ministry. Where do you separate our ministry from what most call "the ministry"?

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

yes i knew a FEW. they maynot be in every assembly ,should be , but maybot be . that would be according to how big ther congregation was and how they have been taught as well to pursue after callings and gifts!~

Rick as has been said it has nothing to do with size of congregation but frame of mind from the pulpit. If the pastor is over authoritive and controling his spirit will not allow the gifts of the spirit to work.

sam would you not say the 5 fold would be callings not gifts? just curious ..

As for the 5 fold being callings and not gifts, I used to understand it that way as that was the way I was taught and the way I preached. It was after I left the organization that God was able to show me how things could be differant in this kingdom if we got mans pride and self out of the way and just allowed God to control things.

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I believe that the reasoning behind there not being a full compliment of the ministries put in place for the church (even multiple people operating in the various ministries) would rest very heavily on teaching rather than church size.

The reason I feel this way is because in the days of the apostles most all the congregations were small groups meeting in homes and yet they had these ministries in operation.

The view that ministry is a vocation is one cause for this. The church is left with the view that there are those who are "in the ministry" and then there are the rest of us rather than seeing ministry as something we all do to and for one another as well as the understanding that these words used (apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher & evangelist) should be viewed less as "what we are" and viewed more often as "what we do".

Mindset issues can shut down the birthing & nurturing of a church full of ministers.

I agree with you Digging the ministry should not be viewed as a vocation or a calling, in OT times God raised up a prophet when times came to a head and he was going to judge the people. These were only for a time. The only appointed priest were the family of Araon and they had not spiritual control over the people. Thier job was to minister in the tabernacle. As Jesus is our high priest now we no longer have the office of priest hood. Prophets, pastors/teachers, Apostles, evangelist, healing, gift of tongues, etc God raises up in the church as the need arises, and it need not be the same person each time.

Originally Posted by Sam

I think we use the terms interchangeably at times. In Ephesians chapter 4 where what we call the 5 fold (some just see 4 there combining pastors and teachers) ministry is listed it speaks of Christ's ascension and then His giving gifts unto men. Then the 5 ministries or callings are listed. So it appears they are gifts there although some say the gifts are not the offices but the men and women who fulfill those offices. Then in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 where Paul speaks of spiritual gifts he calls them gifts, administrations, and operations in verses 4-6. Then in verses 8-10 he lists 9 of them: word of wisdom; word of knowledge; faith; gifts of healing; working of miracles; prophecy; discerning of spirits; tongues (languages); and interpretation of tongues. Then in verses 28-30 he mentions: apostles; prophets; teachers; miracles; gifts of healings; helps; governments; tongues; workers of miracles; and interpretation. Then in Romans 12:6-8 he lists: prophecy; ministry (serving); exhortation; giving; ruling (we usually think of this as leadership or administration); and showing mercy.

I don't think we can limit the gifts of the Spirit to the 9 in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

Sam as far as I am concerned your post and views show true christian caricture. Keep up the good work.

[pastorrick1959]

so drummer you didnt say after u got out of the org. how you then now believe about it? as far as the callings and gifts..

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

so drummer you didnt say after u got out of the org. how you then now believe about it? as far as the callings and gifts..

I believe that the gifts of the spirit include what we call the five fold ministry. And that the authority in the church comes primarily from the elders that are chosen by the church. And this is a plural leadership. That when we come to worship the leadership includes those that lead the service to set the tone that the gifts can move and be used by God. That if God has set pastors they are not given the authority that so many of then take upon thenselves. The spirit of God should be allowed to direct each and every one in the depth of thier walk with God not directed from the pulpit.

I have heard the phrase "I have been set as a watchman on the wall" too many time, and this does not give any man the right to set standard as he sees fit. Even if he thinks he is doing what God directs. I know I am not explaining this very well I will try to take some time and get things together in my heart better. I am just now in the stage of seeing this. I just know that I don't believe that God give any one man the authority taken by any pastor whether he is a good pastor or not.

[pastorrick1959]

well he set pastors ,whether you think they are gifts or callings ,, a pastors job is to watch over the flock of god .. what pastors forget sometimes ,is that people come to their church voluntarily ,..they dont have to be there.

yes i have seen to many get ,an over powering spirit and try as i call it .seargent carter them and everybody else is gomer pyle ..

i belive in leading by example ...i must pray seek god and be faithful in everyway.it is the pastors job to nuture that flock ,care for , instruct ,..i council ,all the time .. people ask me to come ,see a car they want to buy ,to see if in feel its a good car, they respect me . respect it earned ,not demanded.

i have deacons ,and service leaders 6 preachers in my church that help me make decisions ,about things ,but i will have final say and they want me too .. most the time lol. our church is busting out the seems ,and love is always felt in our church ..not force. there are 3 categories of people as i look at it ,100,60, 30 fold .everyone is not at the same place in god or as hungry as someone else ..so standards arent delt with much at all from [pulpit very little ..but to my leaders now they get the 3rd degree ..as they have to modle for the copngregation ,,not ,force just show it ..

ran thru this just to show ya how we do ,, and it works very well. our people are free to move inn ifts,our worship is out of this world ,we have evevrything ,from women in pants sometimes to the old holiness looking women .which i do like . its all done thru ,howing example!not seargent carter style! god bless.

[Godsdrummer]

Pastor Rick

I appreciate what you have said and in most cases yours sounds like a church I would attend just a couple of years ago. As that is much the way I felt church should be like. As a young minister I found the teachings of too many churches are not scriptural.(ie various standards or dicates) But instead of allowing God to lead as his word say it will in the days we live in, they take various passages of scripture to valadate what they think is thier God directed calling.

After many years of being lead to understand many other things that are preached by holiness organizations to not be in the word of God, but rather traditions and rudiments of man. I had to ask myself. If we preach we have the whole truth, yet we are off on several points. And the word tells us we are not to add to his word or take away from God word. And in preaching several of what many call standards of holiness that is just what one is doing.

How are we any differant than some one that believes in the trinity but understands the other points of Gods word over us?

Because of this my relationship with God grew as I was not wrapped up in the outward trapings of what most call pentcostal worship. I found God was more in the quite times then the shout. I had someone ask me this year, (I was telling her of the relationship one can have with God.) She ask me if I missed the times when I would experiance the shouting church services? I had to tell her I get more of a touch from God standing testifing to her than I ever did shouting in church.

I came to realize that the shout so many preach must never leave pentecostal services I just what we do towards God. And yes God comes down at times like these. But these times are not where we get our strength from. We get our strength when we are in study and prayer and God can speak to our hearts.

Im sorry Pastor Rick, I get to meandering, The question is and I have been doing some intense study to find any passaged that gives man authority to take the control over a group of people. All of the passages I have ever quoted, have come back to me, with careful study to have entirely differant meanings than how I used them in times past.

Just one example and then I have to scoot,

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


How many times have you heard this passage or more to the point used this passage to justify to your congregation that God has given you the authority to lead under his direction?

4-5 years ago just before I left UPCI for good, God led me to look at this passage more closely. The firs thing I found was the word "Obey" is not the word we ascribe it to be. This should be worded more like follow those in leadership as you are pursuaded by God as they watch for your souls....

This word "obey" means by pursuasion not blind obediance just because the one behind the pulpit feels he was called of God to be there.

This and many other things have lead me to see things the way I do. As God in OT times never had one man as control over his people, they taught the word in the family units and came together during the feast days for a time of worship to God. God would only raise up a prophet in times of specific need. Judges were not pastors or kings they were simple leaders that brought the faith of the people back to God in order to bring victory over thier enemys. Man they did not even to to church but 4-6 times a year.

And we preach that if you are not there on every church service your sinning LOL

[pastorrick1959]

i can see where youare coming from and its niot all in ashout . our church is a very worshipping church ,most preachers when they come preach for us ,want to rebook quick lol.they love the worship and response they get. the fire.
we slow it down most sunday mornings for good solid teaching .but this sunday morn was different we had 1 get the holy ghost that makes 2 in 1 week ..

i also need to say i wouldnt be where ,i am todaywithout the pastors i had ..

i didnt look it up ,but i still wouldnt have a problem with your verse as the bible says we are to be ensamples to the flock ,,,that word ensamples means to be a model for imitation .. if i am not a good example dont follow me ..

[Godsdrummer]

Here is a question for you. Do receive the tithe as your own or does your church pay you a salary? And if you receive the tithe do you not feel like a hipocrit for taking something that should be split between the whole ministry of the church not just the pastor. Hipocrit is a strong word but the point is that in OT times the tithe was for the use of he whole of he house of Arron not just the high priest.

If we teach and believe in a full 5 fold ministry should not the whole be recongnized and share of the monitary income from the body of Christ. Why then do we teach that only the pastor receives the tithe.

This is just another reason I feel that the authority taken by pastors is not biblical. And that the five fold are not offices but gifts that are to work in the body. I again quote the halmark passage of Eph 4

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the equiping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (what is God equiping the saints for? The work of the ministry, that the body of Christ will be edified.) In other words we are all part of the ministry.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Preaching is for the spread of the gospel, why then do we feel the need to save the saints they are already saved. But more time is taken up preparing sermons to save the saints then are reaching the lost with the good news of salvation to the lost. Instead of obediance to the direct commision of Christ to "Go", we instead have the mentality they must come. Hence our church buildings designed to make people come to us, then the programs designed to get them to stay in our congregation.

Im sorry but this all, in my minds eye is to get people to follow our individual teachings and build bigger congregations and buildings. And not building the kingdom of God. Which I might add is not in buildings made by hands but in the hearts of each and every one of us.

When we can get back to the base of things, and not our own organiztions, denominations and various differances of doctrines and back to the simple teaching of the love of Christ there can be unity in the kingdom of God and Christ can reign in the land. But as we cannot learn to let Christ be king and the gifts of the spirit run the body of Christ instead of mans dictates we are relagated God bringing different governments to bring persecution on the true beleivers till we come in the unity of the spirit and the full stature of the body of Christ.

[pastorrick1959]

well well. we got a nerve going huh? lol... the answer to your 1st question is neither lol how you like that one .. i make very well on my own ,, they do pay however my cell bill since they run it up lol.
however i do feel the tithes is the resposibility of the pastor to receive , in comes into my hands ,i put into the treasury since i am my own secretary ..we are fixing to build a new building as ours is full. to go further also tho. i do take the ministers out to eat here and there and give them money out of the ministry fund before they take vacations as they are part of my work.
i help widows and other in need also with the same money!

i preach to the saints at church to guide and direct them to help them to help others ,, thats why we have a growing problem. you get folks saved in church full of faith and power and send them into a world that needs it ,, comeback to church ,, the next service ,, get pumped back up ,, go find some more!the church is a filling station for faith and power. a motivation place ,to rev the engine up at ,,

most of JESUS miracles took place outside of church!