Your not Oneness but rather Patripassionist

[SteppingStone]

Originally Posted by rawooddell

The dual nature of Jesus Christ does not create a half God half man as in Greek Mythology. The dual nature of Jesus Christ is where the Almighty God who continues from eternity exists, and at the same time assumed to himself a human nature therefore creating a temperal existance: a man, the man Christ Jesus. The Dual Nature perfectly articulates, in my opinion, the union of God with man in a way which would not cofuse the two (Deity and Humanity) or effect the one with the other, but at the same time allow the person, Jesus Christ, to be both. Jesus was both God and Man at the same time. Jesus was God because of his Divinity. Jesus was man because of his Humanity. Jesus the total person prayed to the Father because of the human nature but it was the total person who prayed or else the person is destroyed and is reduced to dual personalities trapped in a body.

Jesus (God existing as a man) could be anointed by, indwelt by, be witnessed to, pray to, love and be loved by God his Father (God continuing to exist as He always has) without creating two in the Godhead or confusing the person of Christ and having Jesus pray to himself. The dual nature makes this possible. In my opinion.

Fascinating..

[shag]

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Titus 2:13 .. while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Is. 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


What do U make of this SRM? Is Jesus Christ not our God AND SAVIOUR?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by shag

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Titus 2:13 .. while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Is. 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


What do U make of this SRM? Is Jesus Christ not our God AND SAVIOUR?

Wouldn't the scriptural statement that God was in Christ be in agreement with these scriptures?

[pastor febus]

Originally Posted by rawooddell

The dual nature of Jesus Christ does not create a half God half man as in Greek Mythology. The dual nature of Jesus Christ is where the Almighty God who continues from eternity exists, and at the same time assumed to himself a human nature therefore creating a temperal existance: a man, the man Christ Jesus. The Dual Nature perfectly articulates, in my opinion, the union of God with man in a way which would not cofuse the two (Deity and Humanity) or effect the one with the other, but at the same time allow the person, Jesus Christ, to be both. Jesus was both God and Man at the same time. Jesus was God because of his Divinity. Jesus was man because of his Humanity. Jesus the total person prayed to the Father because of the human nature but it was the total person who prayed or else the person is destroyed and is reduced to dual personalities trapped in a body.

Jesus (God existing as a man) could be anointed by, indwelt by, be witnessed to, pray to, love and be loved by God his Father (God continuing to exist as He always has) without creating two in the Godhead or confusing the person of Christ and having Jesus pray to himself. The dual nature makes this possible. In my opinion.

Elder, that was awsome!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by rawooddell

The dual nature of Jesus Christ does not create a half God half man as in Greek Mythology. The dual nature of Jesus Christ is where the Almighty God who continues from eternity exists, and at the same time assumed to himself a human nature therefore creating a temperal existance: a man, the man Christ Jesus. The Dual Nature perfectly articulates, in my opinion, the union of God with man in a way which would not cofuse the two (Deity and Humanity) or effect the one with the other, but at the same time allow the person, Jesus Christ, to be both. Jesus was both God and Man at the same time. Jesus was God because of his Divinity. Jesus was man because of his Humanity. Jesus the total person prayed to the Father because of the human nature but it was the total person who prayed or else the person is destroyed and is reduced to dual personalities trapped in a body.

Jesus (God existing as a man) could be anointed by, indwelt by, be witnessed to, pray to, love and be loved by God his Father (God continuing to exist as He always has) without creating two in the Godhead or confusing the person of Christ and having Jesus pray to himself. The dual nature makes this possible. In my opinion.

Amen!

[shag]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Wouldn't the scriptural statement that God was in Christ be in agreement with these scriptures?

yep. Has to be.







good explan. rawooddell

[rawooddell]

This is the serious condition of the One God movement. Due to the past tribulation from the Catholic Church. Then the exodus from the Trinitarian Churches in the early 20th Century plays a particular role in our current dynamics.

We are in such a frenzy to separate ourselves from the Trinity that we would almost be willing sacrifice the Deity of Christ. We, as a movement, must be able to articulate what we believe.

We must not be afraid of using language from the Bible in fear of "sounding" too Trinitarian. And at the same time must not become Unitarian in making Jesus a separate person from God.

Humbly submitted...

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by rawooddell

This is the serious condition of the One God movement. Due to the past tribulation from the Catholic Church. Then the exodus from the Trinitarian Churches in the early 20th Century plays a particular role in our current dynamics.

We are in such a frenzy to separate ourselves from the Trinity that we would almost be willing sacrifice the Deity of Christ. We, as a movement, must be able to articulate what we believe.

We must not be afraid of using language from the Bible in fear of "sounding" too Trinitarian. And at the same time must not become Unitarian in making Jesus a separate person from God.

Humbly submitted...

Well put... true... and highly relevant to where we stand today.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by SRM

Patripassionism is a Christian heresy from the time of the early church. Its adherents believe that God the Father was incarnate and suffered on the cross. This is problematic in the context of the doctrine of the Trinity because the Christian Scriptures record Jesus Christ as speaking to God the Father while he was on the cross. It is also problematic for all those who hold to the impassibility and immutability of the divine, as it implies that God the Father can suffer. Patripassionism began in the third century AD. Patripassionism is also known as Sabellianism (after its founder Sabellius) and modalistic Monarchianism. It was more popular than dynamic Monarchianism.

Hello SRM,

Thank you for your post. Quick question: what is the background of your belief system? I see above you refer to the Trinity, but elsewhere in the thread you mention something about Jesus not being God. Are you JW-Arian? Christadelphian?

Second, Patripassionism holds problems for Trinitarians because it suggests the first person of the Trinity (the Father) is impassable, but the second person (the Son) somehow IS passable (capable of suffering). Clarification, of course, is necessary: God- as to his divine nature- is impassable. God- as to his human nature- IS passable.

Borrowing an idea from our Lutheran friends, we can describe the situation according to the doctrine of the genus idiomaticum (a genera of the communicatio idiomatum): We can designate Christ by virtue of what is true of his divine nature, while predicating something of him by virtue of what is true according to his human nature. Therefore, we can affirm that the person of God (God being divine) suffered and died (according to his human nature). The attributes of God's divine nature did not experience suffering and death, because God's divine nature is immutable and impassable. But his human nature- of which God's person is the terminus- DID suffer and die.

Sabellius, the founder, was a priest who was excommunicated from the Church by Pope Callixtus I in 220 and lived in Rome. Sabellius made the belief more sophisticated. Sabellius advanced the doctrine of the “economic Trinity” and he opposed the Orthodox doctrine of the “essential Trinity”. Praxeus and Noetus were some major followers who are attributed to saying that God the Father became his own Son. Tertullian was the chief opponent of Patripassionism.

Friend, perhaps you are unaware that Tertullian himself was a proponent of the "economic Trinity". In fact, we get this theological term (economy) from Tertullian, who spoke of the oikonomia of God (Against Praxeas, XI, XII, etc.). Tertullian, who was the one who coined the term Trinitas in the first place, was far from what scholars would consider "orthodox". He did not believe in an eternal Son as the Son, nor did he believe the Father and the Son were co-equal since he advanced the popular 2nd ce. belief known as Logos-Christology, which ontologically subordinated the Son (and Holy Spirit) to the Father.

Praxeus tried to reconcile the unity of persons by making distinction between Christ the Father and the Son, a mere man. Therefore the Father co-suffers with the human Jesus.

Patripassionism states that there is only one person, instead of three in the Godhead. God reveals himself in three modes, the father as the creator and lawgiver, the Son as the redeemer, and the Holy Spirit as the giver of grace and the regenerator. The word Patripassionism means (patri) Father (pasion) suffers. Patripassionists believe the father was born of the Virgin Mary, lived, and co-suffered with the human Jesus on the cross. Patripassionism states that the Son was the Father in a different mode and that whatever happened to the Son happened to the Father. Sabelliunism denies that there is a trinity and that instead there is one essence, interchangeable as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, each appearing at different periods of time, not existing together. Scripture used to support this position are passages like John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” and John 14:9, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.” Today Oneness Pentecostalism shares the same beliefs as Patripassionism. Sabellianism gains attractiveness from its emphasis on there being one and only one God.

I think you're mixing definitions here. Patripassionism is specifically defined as the teaching which asserted that it was the Father who suffered and died. Some of the other teachings you cite may be modalist, but not all modalists were patripassionists.

[SRM]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Hello SRM,

Thank you for your post. Quick question: what is the background of your belief system? I see above you refer to the Trinity, but elsewhere in the thread you mention something about Jesus not being God. Are you JW-Arian? Christadelphian?

Second, Patripassionism holds problems for Trinitarians because it suggests the first person of the Trinity (the Father) is impassable, but the second person (the Son) somehow IS passable (capable of suffering). Clarification, of course, is necessary: God- as to his divine nature- is impassable. God- as to his human nature- IS passable.

Borrowing an idea from our Lutheran friends, we can describe the situation according to the doctrine of the genus idiomaticum (a genera of the communicatio idiomatum): We can designate Christ by virtue of what is true of his divine nature, while predicating something of him by virtue of what is true according to his human nature. Therefore, we can affirm that the person of God (God being divine) suffered and died (according to his human nature). The attributes of God's divine nature did not experience suffering and death, because God's divine nature is immutable and impassable. But his human nature- of which God's person is the terminus- DID suffer and die.

Friend, perhaps you are unaware that Tertullian himself was a proponent of the "economic Trinity". In fact, we get this theological term (economy) from Tertullian, who spoke of the oikonomia of God (Against Praxeas, XI, XII, etc.). Tertullian, who was the one who coined the term Trinitas in the first place, was far from what scholars would consider "orthodox". He did not believe in an eternal Son as the Son, nor did he believe the Father and the Son were co-equal since he advanced the popular 2nd ce. belief known as Logos-Christology, which ontologically subordinated the Son (and Holy Spirit) to the Father.

I think you're mixing definitions here. Patripassionism is specifically defined as the teaching which asserted that it was the Father who suffered and died. Some of the other teachings you cite may be modalist, but not all modalists were patripassionists.

The original idea of the post was to point out what I have HEARD some Oneness people teach..Jesus is the Father,You may or may not believe it like that but I know some who do.I would consider myself as a Christian Monotheist..haha..One God who is Father of all..He begot a Son in the womb of Mary in the fulness of time made under the law..Jesus never said He was God but he did tell us WHO God is..

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus came to manifest His Father and God to a world who could not approach him..

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

As far as my background?. Oneness ..