Walks in Islam?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

These men have uttered absolute error. Unbelievable error. One cannot be part of the body of Christ without knowing the name of Jesus. Jesus said that no man comes to Father but by Him. So how can one come by Him when one does not even know his name?

If he did not degrade the bible subtly by using my words that quoted John as a contrast from Jesus words, when in reality he was in effect accusing John the apostle of being false prophet, and suchlike, I would agree. But not now, personally.

Debating or not is one thing. But claiming one could go to glory without Christ is another.

How can anyone suspect a Moslem will end up in heaven by believing the muslim faith, and that Christ's sacrifice on the cross has nothing to do with absolutely the only way one can get to heaven, and consider themselves apostolics, or true Christians in any sense of the word?

In all due respect, your words shock me. But I still love you.

A journey is one thing. One still can be led to Christ if one is still journeying. But a destination considered for one who lives and dies a Moslem, having not accepted Christ's sacrifice as the only way to God, is quite another. The Word tells us the fate of those who do not know Christ as Saviour. The word dealt with the issue of people's destinies in light of their position in regards to the cross. If that does not change, one is lost without this plain issue of the cross.

Me, too. But I will agree with John and say I cannot pray God bless him if he brings not the same doctrine John brought from Christ.

I wonder if you agree with WII that John disagreed with Jesus in his second epistle. This is nothing personal against you, since I do not know you. I am just relating words that I sincerely believe reflect what the Bible says. And in hopes of pleasing all men at the cost of standing with what the word says, I cannot agree with your position.

I'm not necessarily endorsing the Graham statement. I was shocked when I first heard of it. And Mike, I'm not pronouncing "heaven" on anyone. I know what I believe and I'm empowered daily by the power of the Holy Spirit. My desire is that every person on earth experience that! I'm just saying this:

1) If Jesus can pray forgiveness on the man who drove nails through his hands, I feel like I can pray blessing on WII. One could argue that forgiveness is an incredible blessing.

2) All I'm saying is that if there's some little chance that somehow I, and others, have misunderstood something in the Bible (and it happens), OR, if God has a plan that none of us know about and Muslims are in heaven, I'm not going to storm the throne and say, "Hey God, what about John 14:6??"

I haven't really kept up with the contradiction debate. But I did read a little and learned a lot so I'll catch up at some point. You are accomplished in your apologetics and I'm clearly not the debater that you are, largely because I don't like debating, and maybe because you're a lot smarter! WII is also a very accomplished debater, it appears.

I've honestly never given much credence to the contradiction claims...what is it....400 and something supposed contradictions?

I think you and I are a lot closer in theology that it appears, but I think that maybe I'm willing to consider possibilities and you're not and I'm anxious to pray a prayer of blessing on a non-Christian and you're not?

I want God to bless everyone, ultimately, with the blessing of salvation and eternal life!

[Walks_in_islam]

Your post reflects your words. Your words were cut and pasted. Under your words direct words from the bible were cut and pasted. Those words were directly spoken by Jesus. If the direct words from the bible spoken by Jesus degrade you or degrade your words how dare you attribute that to me? You are arguing against words spoken by Jesus and directly quoted from the teachings of Jesus. If quoting the bible in answer to something you said degrades the bible on a christian forum then what have you become? Who are you to say or 'guess' what I "read into the texts". I read and posted the texts and the texts speak for themselves just like they are supposed to. How dare you accuse me of 'making a claim' of what jesus taught vs what John taught. I posted what Jesus taught right beside what you say John taught. With no conclusion. Know why? No additional conclusion was needed. You made your own and by jolly and by the way you made what I feel is the correct one. I will lose no sleep if it was not a comfortable conclusion for you.

To you and all of those who spend their entire lives profiting from ministry:

In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

Originally Posted by mfblume

Veiling what the bible said as MY WORDS in order to degrade the bible by degarding MHY WORDS, Walks in Islam said:

See the subtle manner of degrading the bible without coming out and blatantly doing so? Mods, I suspect WII's efforts to degrade the bible on this forum, using tactics that slightly attempt to avoid actually doing so.

Anyway, welcoming sinners is not welcoming people of false doctrine. I welcomed many sinners in my home who espoused no false doctrine.

Pray for them. To what end? That God bless them, or God save them?

You claim Jesus did no teach what John taught in his second epistle. Attach my name to it since I quoted John, but in reality you are saying John the apostle was speaking against Jesus Christ's words. However, you clearly read into the texts things the texts do not say in attempts to show John the apostle disagreed with Jesus.

Mods, should this be allowed?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Your post reflects your words. Your words were cut and pasted. Under your words direct words from the bible were cut and pasted. Those words were directly spoken by Jesus. If the direct words from the bible spoken by Jesus degrade you or degrade your words how dare you attribute that to me?

Tell me if you think these statements contradict and disagree with each other.

Luke 15:2 KJV And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

2 John 1:10-11 KJV If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: (11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree with Carpenter.

After seeing wii use John's words in his second epistle used under MY NAME, since I happened to quote them, and contrast them with Christ's words as though they disagreed and conflicted with Jesus, that is crossing the line of having this moslem on the forum. Otherwise, without such efforts, I would say nothing against him being here. Saying I do not bid him god speed, as JOHN said, is not "not loving him". In fact, love for him would cause me to stand by what God's word tells me to do, in hopes he be convicted of Islamic false doctrine. If he departs Islam, and comes to Christ by this, then he will thank me in glory!

I mean wii no ill will, do not pray for evil to happen to him, but obey 2 John and simply do not pray God condone his error by blessing him.

Like Jesus said, I pray for wii this night when I am done posting, not to bless him since that would condone his false doctrine as okay. But to save him and bring him in to the eternal life that is in Jesus Christ alone. I mean no ill will to him whatsoever.

If you're praying for his salvation, I would think that you ARE praying blessing upon him. There is no greater blessing than salvation!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

To you and all of those who spend their entire lives profiting from ministry:

In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

Tell me if you believe these commpared scriptures contradict and speak against each other making one of the passages error and false.

Matthew 21:12-13 KJV And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, (13) And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Matthew 10:7-10 KJV And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. (9) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, (10) Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

If you're praying for his salvation, I would think that you ARE praying blessing upon him. There is no greater blessing than salvation!

John's words clearly notes an intent of condoning one's false doctrine when one bids another holding false doctrine god speed. And since praying for one's deliverance from false doctrine is not condoning false doctrine then it is not praying a blessing on such a person.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I'm not necessarily endorsing the Graham statement. I was shocked when I first heard of it. And Mike, I'm not pronouncing "heaven" on anyone. I know what I believe and I'm empowered daily by the power of the Holy Spirit. My desire is that every person on earth experience that!

Amen and amen! .

I'm just saying this:

1) If Jesus can pray forgiveness on the man who drove nails through his hands, I feel like I can pray blessing on WII. One could argue that forgiveness is an incredible blessing.

According to the context of 2 John 1:10 that is not a "blessing".

2) All I'm saying is that if there's some little chance that somehow I, and others, have misunderstood something in the Bible (and it happens), OR, if God has a plan that none of us know about and Muslims are in heaven, I'm not going to storm the throne and say, "Hey God, what about John 14:6??"

Such a thought could not enter anyone's mind who genuinely reads and believes what a child can understand in Christ's and the apostles' words. They're just too plain to cause one, I think, to make a statement you make.

I haven't really kept up with the contradiction debate. But I did read a little and learned a lot so I'll catch up at some point. You are accomplished in your apologetics and I'm clearly not the debater that you are, largely because I don't like debating, and maybe because you're a lot smarter! WII is also a very accomplished debater, it appears.

I've honestly never given much credence to the contradiction claims...what is it....400 and something supposed contradictions?

I think you and I are a lot closer in theology that it appears, but I think that maybe I'm willing to consider possibilities and you're not and I'm anxious to pray a prayer of blessing on a non-Christian and you're not?

I pray blessings on many people who are not Christians, but not on people who hold false doctrine. Sorry. John simply said one who brings another doctrine cannot be blessed. I did not say that. John did. Wii seems to think John disagreed with Jesus.

I want God to bless everyone, ultimately, with the blessing of salvation and eternal life!

That is not what "blessing" is in John's context. John noted that when we pray a blessing on a false prophet we are condoning their doctrine. Period. I neither pray nor wish any ill will on wii's life whatsoever. But John's words are true.

You and most likely agree, essentially. But I think you mistaken what John said due to your insistence that "blessing" is something else than what John meant. If that be the case, we agree in essence. It's only similar to someone who calls the color blue by the label "green" when in reality the person honestly mistook the label to refer to the same colour I call blue. You also, I think, erringly interpret John's advice something that is speaking against people actively and consciously fighting Christ as opposed to John's actual words about anyone not holding Christ's doctrine.

I do think you are crossing the line, though, in trying to appeal to people. Reaching out is one thing, but compromising truth in order to do so is another.



And who said I am smarter than you? You may be the smart one here!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

John's words clearly notes an intent of condoning one's false doctrine when one bids another holding false doctrine god speed. And since praying for one's deliverance from false doctrine is not condoning false doctrine then it is not praying a blessing on such a person.

But again, John, and others who talked about false doctrine, were talking about people who were actively working to destroy the gospel and bringing OT legalism into the church. WII doesn't fit into that category, from what I can see.

Let me ask you this....not long ago, Christianity Today interviewed several Muslims who were exiting Willow Creek Community Church on a Sunday morning. They stated they had been attending for a year and a half and the article, basically, ripped Willow for allowing them to be there. What would be your reaction to that?

And be careful not to hurt my feelings....I'm seeker sensitive!!!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Your post reflects your words. Your words were cut and pasted. Under your words direct words from the bible were cut and pasted. Those words were directly spoken by Jesus.

And they were directly spoken by John.

If the direct words from the bible spoken by Jesus degrade you or degrade your words how dare you attribute that to me?

VERY subtle, wii.

Jesus' words do not degrade me or my words. Jesus' words correspond perfectly with John's words in 2 John 1:10.

Your words degrade John the Apostle's words as words that conflict with what Jesus Christ said.

I disagree with nothing Jesus said. But you seem to disagree with what John the apostle said to the extent you claim John conflicted with Jesus.

You are arguing against words spoken by Jesus and directly quoted from the teachings of Jesus.

Not at all. I love every word and agree with every word Jesus said.

If quoting the bible in answer to something you said degrades the bible on a christian forum then what have you become? Who are you to say or 'guess' what I "read into the texts". I read and posted the texts and the texts speak for themselves just like they are supposed to. How dare you accuse me of 'making a claim' of what jesus taught vs what John taught.

Because that is exactly what you did.

I posted what Jesus taught right beside what you say John taught. With no conclusion. Know why? No additional conclusion was needed. You made your own and by jolly and by the way you made what I feel is the correct one.

Not at all. I explained what the words meant from both Christ and John, and indeed there is no conclusion needed since they simply state what I claimed. Anyone except those looking for conflict in their words would agree.

I will lose no sleep if it was not a comfortable conclusion for you.

It was a dishonest conclusion, is all. If you can sleep with that, then go right ahead.

Regards!

[Walks_in_islam]

And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. (9) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, (10) Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

No this one kind of makes my point. I was looking for that "noted and filed for future reference". Considering the word "trepho" was used the literal meaning is food or nourishment. Kind of a tough life they were set out to lead. Nothing like the ministry of today eh Blume? Ministry of today looks more like business than service. Just sayin'

Originally Posted by mfblume

Tell me if you believe these commpared scriptures contradict and speak against each other making one of the passages error and false.