Let's Talk about This. Seriously!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

http://rodneyshaw.wordpress.com/2009...t-our-problem/


Our real concern is with the day and age in which we live and the barrage of change we are facing. The real dilemma is whether or not we can maintain apostolic identity in a postmodern world. That is the real challenge. We are failing to attract young ministers. We are failing to keep young ministers. We have a church culture that is often critical of innovation. We apparently do not have a sustainable plan for succession. Relentlessly beating on the emergent church will not solve these problems.

We Apostolics have a tendency to define ourselves over against what we are not. Having a defined enemy gives us some comfort, but using the emergent church as a scapegoat for postmodernism and the larger issues of our day is no solution. Now I am no fan of the emergent church and I have no tolerance for the abandonment of biblical truth, but it is a strategic mistake for us to point all our guns at the emergent church. Who will be our enemy when they pass on? There is no single problem or movement, that if attacked and castigated, will eliminate the challenges we are facing. If the emergent church collapses tomorrow, every issue that we face will still be on the table.

It must be realized that, based on the emergent church’s description of themselves, we have no emergents among us. We have a lot of innovators and a lot of people who are trying to be relevant and articulate the gospel in ways that are consistent with postmodernism, and we have a few who are abandoning apostolic doctrine, but by definition we do not have any emergents. It is therefore unproductive to use the emergent label indiscriminately. It is both inaccurate and unhelpful.

Maybe we should end celibacy...oh wait...never mind

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by CAD/JPY

For a lot of elders, they don't have the answers to the questions that we ask. And that is worrisome when you have been doing this your whole life. AND to this older generation, asking questions was sometimes seen as rebellious. So now you have this younger generation asking questions... and the conclusion is made that it is just rebellion.

But wait a minute!! Hey! Baby boomer generation that is retiring now, and stepping back. My generation has inherited global warming, a horrible deficit, and now a pension that is flat broke.... and you want us to trust you??
To just assume that what you say goes? That if we go along with the status quo, we will be all right?

Oh, but that doesn't happen among the church. Uh huh, yea right! What about..... and I could go on, and on with examples of major concern that were mishandled.

Point being, my generation.... 25 to 45 is inheriting some serious problems, both among the church and world. So we have every right to question... and even more so as we see the problems that certain stances or approvals have started. Problems that we now inherit.


We are walking new paths, blazing new trails... I'm sorry, I just can't walk in your Apostolic Footprints, I have to go make my own! But believe me, Mr. and Mrs. Older Generation, I do want you involved and I need your help, even if you don't have all the answers. Just get involved in our lives.... because sitting at the "reserved tables" doesn't work for me.

This post is proof that there are serious problems. PLEASE allow the young to question, and even blaze a new trail. If you lose a generation, you will eventually fade away.

Don't eat your young!

[Digging4Truth]

The whole thing reminds me of a news story I heard a few decades ago.

There was a farm town that had become fairly wealthy and they didn't want to drive their nice fancy cadillacs over cattle guards anymore so they sought out a new way to keep the cattle in without those bumpy cattle guards.

It was discovered that if you pave over the cattle guard and then paint lines similar to the cattle guard construction that it would keep the cattle in just as well as a cattle guard.

When I heard that I thought... how stupid. Yes... that will work for now because the cattle have tried the cattle guard and they are convinced of it's power to stop them so the lines will be enough to deter their attempts.

And they may convince their calves by their actions that this is not something to be crossed...

But someday... some time down the road... some calf is going to think "Why don't we just walk across this and go eat grass over there" and he is going to try it and it is going to work.

Surely there will be other cows freak out because "you can't cross that" although there may be few or none surviving that remember why.

That is what is going on these days. There are invisible lines out there that we have been told not to cross and some of us don't even know why. But there is a generation coming in whom the reason for fear has not been taught and they are trying those boundaries and finding that God is still there too.

You can no longer convince people of these lines and the herd is about to find a new field.

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

The whole thing reminds me of a news story I heard a few decades ago.

There was a farm town that had become fairly wealthy and they didn't want to drive their nice fancy cadillacs over cattle guards anymore so they sought out a new way to keep the cattle in without those bumpy cattle guards.

It was discovered that if you pave over the cattle guard and then paint lines similar to the cattle guard construction that it would keep the cattle in just as well as a cattle guard.

When I heard that I thought... how stupid. Yes... that will work for now because the cattle have tried the cattle guard and they are convinced of it's power to stop them so the lines will be enough to deter their attempts.

And they may convince their calves by their actions that this is not something to be crossed...

But someday... some time down the road... some calf is going to think "Why don't we just walk across this and go eat grass over there" and he is going to try it and it is going to work.

Surely there will be other cows freak out because "you can't cross that" although there may be few or none surviving that remember why.

That is what is going on these days. There are invisible lines out there that we have been told not to cross and some of us don't even know why. But there is a generation coming in whom the reason for fear has not been taught and they are trying those boundaries and finding that God is still there too.

You can no longer convince people of these lines and the herd is about to find a new field.

Wow! Great analogy.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

That is what is going on these days. There are invisible lines out there that we have been told not to cross and some of us don't even know why. But there is a generation coming in whom the reason for fear has not been taught and they are trying those boundaries and finding that God is still there too.

You can no longer convince people of these lines and the herd is about to find a new field.

Very good!

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

The whole thing reminds me of a news story I heard a few decades ago.

There was a farm town that had become fairly wealthy and they didn't want to drive their nice fancy cadillacs over cattle guards anymore so they sought out a new way to keep the cattle in without those bumpy cattle guards.

It was discovered that if you pave over the cattle guard and then paint lines similar to the cattle guard construction that it would keep the cattle in just as well as a cattle guard.

When I heard that I thought... how stupid. Yes... that will work for now because the cattle have tried the cattle guard and they are convinced of it's power to stop them so the lines will be enough to deter their attempts.

And they may convince their calves by their actions that this is not something to be crossed...

But someday... some time down the road... some calf is going to think "Why don't we just walk across this and go eat grass over there" and he is going to try it and it is going to work.

Surely there will be other cows freak out because "you can't cross that" although there may be few or none surviving that remember why.

That is what is going on these days. There are invisible lines out there that we have been told not to cross and some of us don't even know why. But there is a generation coming in whom the reason for fear has not been taught and they are trying those boundaries and finding that God is still there too.

You can no longer convince people of these lines and the herd is about to find a new field.

Great post! I'm in awe of how you use simple words to convey such profound principles. I appreciate you, bro!

[mizpeh]

It's a sad commentary that the young and the old are on the same team but can't seem to love each other enough to work together to come to a common understanding or at least a respectful tolerance of each others views.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

It's a sad commentary that the young and the old are on the same team but can't seem to love each other enough to work together to come to a common understanding or at least a respectful tolerance of each others views.

This might sound like I'm painting with a broad brush, so let me preface this by saying:

This has been MY EXPERIENCE, and is not necessarily representative of the Oneness Apostolic movement as a whole.

The young are taught to respect the elders. This is a biblical concept and certainly is worthy of admonition.

There is no such biblical admonition for the elders, aside from "provoke not your children unto wrath..."

Most younger folks, though they can often be cocky, typically honor and respect the elders - especially the elder ministry in the church. The same can RARELY be said going the opposite direction.

Again... in my experience... the elder generations have typically only been critical of the younger generations as lazy, compromising, unholy, etc. And when any questions are asked, the harsh response is returned that they are rebellious (might as well buy a broom, 'cause you're a witch) and borderline backslidden. The older generation usually seems to be enraptured in a sense of entitlement - entitled to be judgmental, entitled to be harsh and rude, entitled to be grumpy for grumpiness' sake - with little to no respect shown to the younger generations. And while there is no literal biblical admonition to do so, it would certainly be more productive to be kind and respectful. Wise words tempered with kindness and love are more easily digested whether they are positive or negative. Sis. Alvear and Sis. Falla are glowing examples of this.

I think it comes down to power. Those in power want to hold onto it and view any challenge or question as an attempt to wrest that power away. Thus, no succession plan is in place and our younger generation becomes alienated or apathetic.

Something to think about...

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by CAD/JPY

For a lot of elders, they don't have the answers to the questions that we ask. And that is worrisome when you have been doing this your whole life. AND to this older generation, asking questions was sometimes seen as rebellious. So now you have this younger generation asking questions... and the conclusion is made that it is just rebellion.

But wait a minute!! Hey! Baby boomer generation that is retiring now, and stepping back. My generation has inherited global warming, a horrible deficit, and now a pension that is flat broke.... and you want us to trust you??
To just assume that what you say goes? That if we go along with the status quo, we will be all right?

Oh, but that doesn't happen among the church. Uh huh, yea right! What about..... and I could go on, and on with examples of major concern that were mishandled.

Point being, my generation.... 25 to 45 is inheriting some serious problems, both among the church and world. So we have every right to question... and even more so as we see the problems that certain stances or approvals have started. Problems that we now inherit.


We are walking new paths, blazing new trails... I'm sorry, I just can't walk in your Apostolic Footprints, I have to go make my own! But believe me, Mr. and Mrs. Older Generation, I do want you involved and I need your help, even if you don't have all the answers. Just get involved in our lives.... because sitting at the "reserved tables" doesn't work for me.

Your social comments sound similar to what was said in the 1960's during the Vietnam war, race riots, environmentalist activism....there is nothing new under the sun. It was labeled the "generation gap" back then.

There are no new trails, no new paths. There is only one true ultimate path that leads to eternal life. There are attitudes that as we walk that path will bring many differing factions (the younger and older generations) of the same body in harmony like humility, love, peaceableness, honesty, respect. We aren't all going to agree on whether to celebrate a holy day or not, whether we should eat meat or not, the disagreements are different in our day but nevertheless the end is the same. We walk the same path and we need to learn how to walk on this path together in peace.

Just a bit of advice from observing what you wrote...please look before you leap.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Wow! Great analogy.

yes, I think so too