Grace Verse Legalism

[cliff d]

We need some necessary support for the child of God. But when there is growth it is time
to loosen or remove the support so it will not strangle the one we are trying to help.

[Steve Epley]

Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree with what you are saying. I am a self-starter and have never had a problem in this area.

Just looking back and having been under both good and bad leadership, I still see a large group of people that don't seem to have a "desire" to try and think for themselves.

I don't know where that comes from. I'm not sure we can totally blame that on a lack of good leadership in all cases.

I personally know a great leader and preacher who has cried and said, "I can't get these people to stop living off of my anointing and seek their own."

This still amazes me. I don't understand it. I'm sure I am approaching your thread from another direction. LOL!

PO, I totally agree with what you are saying here. Some people do not WANT to think for themselves.

I encountered this when I pastored, and believe it or not, I still encounter it in the secular world.

I have some Project Managers who are self-starters, manage their own projects without prompting from me, have their reports in to me in a timely fashion, schedule their own meetings, etc. and I never have to prompt them. I make training available to them and they readily accept it. I spend time empowering them to handle increasing responsibility, and they are eager to do so.

Then, I have some Project Managers who I have to continually prod to complete their Best Practices, schedule their meetings, have their equipment delivered in time for install, etc. The ironic thing is, the ones I have to lead by the hand are my SENIOR project managers, in most cases!

Say what you will, but some folks will accept the empowerment and assist the leader with their abilities and desire to learn and advance, and others will just be a drain on the leader's time.

Do they all have worth? Absolutely!
Do you have to treat them differently? Absolutely.

[El Predicador]

Originally Posted by steve epley

most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the law." 1jn. 3:4
paul speaks of the "law of life in christ." rom. 8:3

there is no liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is not a necessary evil.
The holy ghost sets men over the flock acts 20:28, 1pet. 5:1-4
the ministry is for the perfecting of the saints eph. 4:11
saints were commanded to remember heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the rule over them.

Jude and peter's warnings about those who dispise government are very strong 2pet. 2:10-14, jude 8-13

most folks discussing legalism and grace don't have a clue about either.

amen brother epley

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

PO, I totally agree with what you are saying here. Some people do not WANT to think for themselves.

I encountered this when I pastored, and believe it or not, I still encounter it in the secular world.

I have some Project Managers who are self-starters, manage their own projects without prompting from me, have their reports in to me in a timely fashion, schedule their own meetings, etc. and I never have to prompt them. I make training available to them and they readily accept it. I spend time empowering them to handle increasing responsibility, and they are eager to do so.

Then, I have some Project Managers who I have to continually prod to complete their Best Practices, schedule their meetings, have their equipment delivered in time for install, etc. The ironic thing is, the ones I have to lead by the hand are my SENIOR project managers, in most cases!

Say what you will, but some folks will accept the empowerment and assist the leader with their abilities and desire to learn and advance, and others will just be a drain on the leader's time.

Do they all have worth? Absolutely!
Do you have to treat them differently? Absolutely.

Oh my goodness!!! Someone actually paid attention to what I was saying and understood!!! Thank you!!!!!

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Ron

Rhoni,

You get what you preach/teach.
Preach faith for a healing-you will get the faith that produces a healing!
Preach against sin & you will get conviction.

People are sheep & sheep are dumb (with apologies to sheep) & need teaching.

Otherwise Pastors are not needed & irrelevant.

We had one new convert going around wearing "see through" blouses!
The Pastors wife went & spoke to her & it cleared the matter up.
She was sincere, but sincerely wrong.

I guess that is legalism.

Ron, Last time I checked...Pastors were people/sheep and they are also 'dumb' as you call it. Jesus is the Sheperd and not the Pastor. The pastor's job is to feed the sheep not kill them.

You have to let new converts observe and learn you should allow the spirit of God to convict. God does not need a saints help to address modesty with new converts...unless they ask. If you address it before God does then they are not going to own the conviction they will be assimilating into Apostolic culture...and it won't last.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Grace is NOT God's septic tank that catches all our trash.
Grace gives victory over sin.

LEGALISM IS NOT OBEYING WHAT IS COMMANDED IN THE NEW COVENANT THAT IS GRACE WITHIN ITSELF.

Actually it is...Christ became sin and accepted the penalty of all our sin from the beginning of time until the end of it.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by cliff d

So our emphasis should be on getting believers to develop a relational liaison with the vine rather than a structural relationship with man's standards. Grace will deepen your walk with the Lord because it is relational in nature and not structural. Grace is an affiliation of the believer and Christ, that is held together by love that creates good works as a byproduct rather than as required performance.
Grace has a higher standard than law because it says: Have your own way in all my life. Grace goes beyond rule books and bylaws.

We need grace to do more of the teaching rather than man regulating everything for the believer. Too many believers have no concept of letting grace develop their faith because they have been choked and hindered by man's interpretation of everything.

Praise God! AMEN and AMEN!

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

Case in point

[mfblume]

Also, legalists usually do not know what legalism is. Grace is where God empowers us to change and legalism is where we do it through human energy without dependence upon God's power whatsoever.