Be Ye Perfect

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

This is the challenge among most works oriented Pentecostals. It's very difficult for people who don't have a true revelation of grace, to accept that salvation is a gift of God and must be received by faith apart from works. That one cannot save themselves is even offensive to some people. I guess it's the pride of natural man that demands that one save himself, rather than simply living out a salvation that has been freely given through faith in Jesus Christ.

Right. It's little wonder so many Christians have a salvation by works concept, because it is the carnal concept inbred in us all since birth due to the knowledge of good and evil. One of the church's great tasks is to remove this concept and replace it with God's LIFE to empower us to do good.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So mfblume are you saying that our standing with Christ (our salvation) can never change? That is what Adino is saying. Truly Blessed is saying it cannot change as long as we live but can after we die.

Our standing changes only when we consciously depart from Christ.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Our standing changes only when we consciously depart from Christ.

The Mighty God of Israel takes the initiative as he sees fit. He is the Lord and Master.

Notice how he threatens to change the standing of the Laodicean Church.

15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Rev. 3:15-16

This group did not consciencely depart from him. They simply wanted him along with the things of the world. They were IN the body of Christ. Here he threatens to spew them out if they do not repent.

Its not his desire but the threat is there. Continue in lukewarmness? Be vomited out of his body. The Church needs to accept this and believe instead of believing the fable that only they can change their standing.


He is sovereign. If he is sovereign enough to give salvation he is sovereign enough to take it back. Quote by a Baptist Preacher named Lester Roloff.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So mfblume are you saying that our standing with Christ (our salvation) can never change? That is what Adino is saying. Truly Blessed is saying it cannot change as long as we live but can after we die.

Can you give examples in Scripture where God changed the standing of someone who had been given status as a child of God through a covenant relationship with Him because their state didn't measure up to their standing with God while they were still on earth? I believe that no matter what path my life may take in the future, I am a son of God and will be judged as a son. Yet, even a son who is guilty of the sins that are clearly spelled out in Scripture, will not inherit the kingdom of God. We can't be unborn spiritually anymore than we can naturally, but we can die spiritually. Eternal separation from God is the second death and all who die in sin will experience this second death. God can't change this even for a son.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Can you give examples in Scripture where God changed the standing of someone who had been given status as a child of God through a covenant relationship with Him because their state didn't measure up to their standing with God while they were still on earth? I believe that no matter what path my life may take in the future, I am a son of God and will be judged as a son. Yet, even a son who is guilty of the sins that are clearly spelled out in Scripture, will not inherit the kingdom of God. We can't be unborn spiritually anymore than we can naturally, but we can die spiritually. Eternal separation from God is the second death and all who die in sin will experience this second death. God can't change this even for a son.

Yes look at the post above this one. People who are IN the body of Christ are threatened to be vomited OUT OF HIS MOUTH. They were in but if they dont repent they will be OUT.

How about this in parable form.?

6: He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7: Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8: And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Luke 13:6-9

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes look at the post above this one. People who are IN the body of Christ are threatened to be vomited OUT OF HIS MOUTH. They were in but if they don't repent they will be OUT.

How about this in parable form.?

6: He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7: Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8: And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Luke 13:6-9

As you express, they "were threatened" which is not the same as carrying out of the act. And if they didn't repent WHEN would they be "OUT"? They were at this point being dealt with as a people with standing as the church of Laodicea. The emphasis here is God's desire for them to repent and live as conquerors so they will in the end sit down with Him in the Kingdom. As I have said, His rejection was something future, not something present.

In the parable you mention the vineyard is an OT figure for Israel (Isa.5:1-7). The symbolism of the fig tree is uncertain, but it also probably represents Israel as it does in Mark 11:12-14. It was customary for Palestinians to plant fruit trees in their vineyards.

The owner of the vineyard is Israel's God. For three years He has been patient with Israel, yet the tree hasn't borne the expected fruit. The vinedresser who secures more time for cultivating would be Jesus Christ, whose intercession has gained another opportunity for Israel.

The point of this parable is that Israel is being given one last opportunity. If she does not bear fruit, she will be cut down. The fruit which God expects are the deeds which express a genuine response to His call to repentance.

We know that they were in fact cut off so that the Gentiles could be grafted in, but they did not lose their standing as the chosen people of God. The covenant relationship remained unchanged and will eventually be fully restored. They were cut off from the blessings and fellowship of God because of their rejection of Jesus Christ.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The Mighty God of Israel takes the initiative as he sees fit. He is the Lord and Master.

Notice how he threatens to change the standing of the Laodicean Church.

15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Rev. 3:15-16

This group did not consciencely depart from him. They simply wanted him along with the things of the world. They were IN the body of Christ. Here he threatens to spew them out if they do not repent.

Its not his desire but the threat is there. Continue in lukewarmness? Be vomited out of his body. The Church needs to accept this and believe instead of believing the fable that only they can change their standing.


He is sovereign. If he is sovereign enough to give salvation he is sovereign enough to take it back. Quote by a Baptist Preacher named Lester Roloff.

Brother, when we live carnally, deep inside we know it. And we thereby change our standing. I should reword it to say that our disobedience to God will consciously or even unconcsciously cause a change in our standing. But it is OUR actions, and not God's.

Baptists are eternal security proponents. They do not understand that God only predestinates those WHO CHOOSE TO LOVE HIM, and remain in such love for Him. Rom 8:28-29

[Adino]

Here are a couple of questions to spark some more thought:

1) How many of our sins were reckoned to Christ?

2) Were ALL the sins reckoned to Christ dealt with on the cross?

3) If ALL our sins have been reckoned to Christ, what sins are reckoned to us who trust in Him (even of those we have yet to commit)?

My humble opinion:

1) How many of our sins were reckoned to Christ? ALL of them.... those in our past, present, and future.

2) Were ALL the sins reckoned to Christ dealt with on the cross? YES, otherwise, Christ would not have been raised. We would still be in our sins (1Corinthians 15:17).

3) If ALL our sins have been reckoned to Christ, what sins are reckoned to us who trust in Him (even of those we have yet to commit)? None but unbelief

2Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Your thoughts?

[Michael The Disciple]

Our sins were indeed paid for by the death of the Lamb. Yet Paul describes it this way:

24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:24-25

After we are initially justified through our new birth experience we are commanded to live without sin by the power of his Spirit. IF and WHEN we dont that sin is NOT automatically cleansed. It must be repented of.

1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Brother, when we live carnally, deep inside we know it. And we thereby change our standing. I should reword it to say that our disobedience to God will consciously or even unconcsciously cause a change in our standing. But it is OUR actions, and not God's.

Baptists are eternal security proponents. They do not understand that God only predestinates those WHO CHOOSE TO LOVE HIM, and remain in such love for Him. Rom 8:28-29

Of course the change in our standing is because of our sin. Yet it seems clear that it is only God can change our standing. He says HE will blot out their name from his book in both Old and New Testaments.

Our sin is the cause but he as the sovereign King of the Universe presents HIMSELF as the one who has the final say.