Revisiting the "PANTS" Issue

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

You know with modern fashion being the way it is, pants are no longer considered men's apparel, unless with full conviction any man will tell me they can go to Dillards or Macy's and shop in the woman's department for flowery capris pants.
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I am looking for some clamdiggers for a cruise and the beach next month... I may check them out. Flowers are good too if they are tropical.

[DanielR]

I sure would like to see the pants rule go by the way side, I'd love to return to the breeches and leggins that my ancesters wore for 1000 generations. Even the kilts would be better than pants.

But as far as the women go, whatever dress is appropriate at the time is fine with me, but I do think they look better in dresses/skirts though.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Mark, I think there are many that feel as my wife and I do, that skirts are more feminine, and generally are a good way for women to show Christian modesty in dress. However it is NOT about abominations in Duet., Salvation, or a requirement to all women everywhere.

Naturally, with this view comes a tolerance that was perhaps a bit uncommon 10 - 20 years ago.

amen, amen, amen, amen. Skirts are more feminine, more modest (as long as their not to short to sit down, or to tight to walk). But I don't think the Duet 22:5 scriptures holds alot of weight in the discussion. I prefer women in church wear skirts all of the time, but wouldn't punish them for not doing so. I don't think I would use them on the platform though, but probably would in sunday school.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by StMark

for some reason,things are starting to change more rapidly CC. The youth of the UPC in general are totally different then when you or even I were coming up. There are some that will conform simply because they long for affirmation but others say that the times demand change.
I honestly don't know what to think sometimes. I see those who have changed and lost too much. I see that compromise has gone from dress to now moral issues are on the table. maybe not everywhere yet, but it's creeping in slowly

St. Mark,

I work with a guy who attends an area UPC church and a couple of years ago I overheard him discussing a new movie that was in the threaters. I saw him a little while later alone and kidded him that I was going to call his pastor or Bro. Haney about him going to movies. He laughed and told me it was kind of a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it came to movies. Just about all of the younger people did (he is about 30) but you didn't talk about it openly.

The moral issues thing has always been a problem with young people in Pentecost. When I was a teenager kids who wouldn't dream of going to a movie or in the case of girls wouldn't think of cutting their hair or wearing makeup would hop in the backseat of a car and get hot-n-heavy not long after shouting their uncut hair down.

I know there are many wonderful conservative Pentecostal young people who don't fit this description but I have to tell you that my boys experience with UPC girls is that they were "freaky" (meaning wild) compared to most of the girls they dated. I knew what they meant because when I was a teen it seemed like since we couldn't do much of anything (almost everything fun was a sin) so many resorted to physical / sexual pleasure.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by StMark

I also still think that a skirt for women are more feminine then pants. women tend to act and sit differently and also look decidely different then a man when wearing a skirt.

If Duet 22 accounts for nothing, then where do we apply any distinction between the sexes ?? what other scripture would we have to use?? would you advocate that every man is a law to himself????

Beards on men is a natural distinction if body curvatures don't do the trick.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

On the contrary, we had these views before TV.

BTW, noone watching the show seemed to think we were on a "slippery slope" on this issue.

That is because the producers edited you to sound and act like Shrek!*
















*An Ogre

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by StMark

I also still think that a skirt for women are more feminine then pants. women tend to act and sit differently and also look decidely different then a man when wearing a skirt.

If Duet 22 accounts for nothing, then where do we apply any distinction between the sexes ?? what other scripture would we have to use?? would you advocate that every man is a law to himself????

St. Mark, this is a canned and traditional response to the pants issue. In fact this echos in my ears coming from the pulpit in the last decades.

I have seen some Pentecostal women hair put up, skirts down to their ankles, sleeves covering their watches and adams apples, who were THE most masculine and authority usurping individuals on the planet. In fact, some of these women are actually scary. They look like ladies, but the persona they wear is nothing BUT masculine and man-like. So, for every lady you think acts different when she wears pants, I have a woman dressed in the skirts that would just as soon crush your man-spirit.

So the problem in your using Deut is sorrowfully wrong when you put it in the context of WE this and WE that, as in defining and regulating a corporate morality.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by CC1

St. Mark,

I work with a guy who attends an area UPC church and a couple of years ago I overheard him discussing a new movie that was in the threaters. I saw him a little while later alone and kidded him that I was going to call his pastor or Bro. Haney about him going to movies. He laughed and told me it was kind of a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it came to movies. Just about all of the younger people did (he is about 30) but you didn't talk about it openly.
has always been a problem with young people in Pentecost. When I was a teenager kids who wouldn't dream of going to a movie or in the case of girls wouldn't think of cutting their hair or wearing makeup would hop in the backseat of a car and get hot-n-heavy not long after shouting their uncut hair down.

I know there are many wonderful conservative Pentecostal young people who don't fit this description but I have to tell you that my boys experience with UPC girls is that they were "freaky" (meaning wild) compared to most of the girls they dated. I knew what they meant because when I was a teen it seemed like since we couldn't do much of anything (almost everything fun was a sin) so many resorted to physical / sexual pleasure.

This is 100% true, I have seen and lived both sides of this fence brother! I remember when I turned 18 it was spring and I was still in High School. Our music director (who was also my friend) asked me if I wanted to go to the strip club with him... Scary stuff...

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

St. Mark, this is a canned and traditional response to the pants issue. In fact this echos in my ears coming from the pulpit in the last decades.

I have seen some Pentecostal women hair put up, skirts down to their ankles, sleeves covering their watches and adams apples, who were THE most masculine and authority usurping individuals on the planet. In fact, some of these women are actually scary. They look like ladies, but the persona they wear is nothing BUT masculine and man-like. So, for every lady you think acts different when she wears pants, I have a woman dressed in the skirts that would just as soon crush your man-spirit.

So the problem in your using Deut is sorrifully wrong when you put it in the context of WE this and WE that, as in defining and regulating a corporate morality.

You are correct. I think St. Matt is seeing those women through the filter of his conditioning because the reality is what you describe.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by CC1

St. Mark,

I work with a guy who attends an area UPC church and a couple of years ago I overheard him discussing a new movie that was in the threaters. I saw him a little while later alone and kidded him that I was going to call his pastor or Bro. Haney about him going to movies. He laughed and told me it was kind of a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it came to movies. Just about all of the younger people did (he is about 30) but you didn't talk about it openly.
has always been a problem with young people in Pentecost. When I was a teenager kids who wouldn't dream of going to a movie or in the case of girls wouldn't think of cutting their hair or wearing makeup would hop in the backseat of a car and get hot-n-heavy not long after shouting their uncut hair down.

I know there are many wonderful conservative Pentecostal young people who don't fit this description but I have to tell you that my boys experience with UPC girls is that they were "freaky" (meaning wild) compared to most of the girls they dated. I knew what they meant because when I was a teen it seemed like since we couldn't do much of anything (almost everything fun was a sin) so many resorted to physical / sexual pleasure.

So are you saying we make better wives?