We Must Rethink A Few Things

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Can become. To me politics is a vehicle that if used by men of integrity can promote a cause to greatness. But the danger is that the vehicle can become the thing promoted instead of the cause. And then there is the issue of to often power corrupting the men driving the vehicle.

I believe you are correct. There is always a danger with man involved but that should not keep us from being involved in a godly fashion.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I guess we must define our terms. What do you me by "politics"? In Scripture we see godly men using politics in a noble fashion.

Good point...

I should have noted that there is a difference in politics and politics.

Politics in one sense is the use of intrigue or strategy in obtaining any position of power or control, as in government or business. This is iniquity...out of the bounds of divine law. Lust for power will move one to use this form of politics. It is seen in ecclesiastical circles all the time.

Then, there is the politics of the art of persuasion. This is acceptable when it is done in humility and brotherly love, esteeming others above self. When bretheren come together with this disposition, it can then be said, "how good and pleasant it is..." Paul was in a politician in this sense. He said that he persuaded men. Yet he did not use intrigue and stealth to worm his way into power from the lust of holding office. It took a little political saavy to get my wife to marry me.

The latter is godly, while the former is not. A fellowship that does not step across the bounds to use the former can be a powerful force for the cause of God. Nevertheless all power of is of God...including that of Hitler during his day. But, that is another discussion from which debate can have no end.

[Apprehended]

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1Pe 2:13 ¶ Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;


1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.


1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.


1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

No one is under any obligation to join a man made organization or denomination, but once you do, behave yourself and live according to the instructions given to you by the Apostle of the Lord here, and for the sake of Christ, the laws of the organization. These eccelesiastical magistrates ARE ordained of God for the purpose that they are placed there because there IS no power that is not ordained of God.

Once bound to those laws though it is not sin, it could become iniquitous when one operates outside the laws of Divine Love to engage in political intrigue and stealth for the sake of wordly power outside the kingdom laws of LOVE. To behave CONTRARY to those laws renders that malcontent a rebel against established, God ordained powers.

God knows that there is a lot of wicked, political intrigue that goes on in those denominations and organizations. To use those methods to gain power or advance an agenda is wicked. However, no one within that fellowship is compelled to participate in that wickeness. It is the way of WORLDLINESS which character we are told to love NOT. It will pass away and the LUST thereof along with it.

Meanwhile, rebellion is as wicked as it is the core of the spirit of a rebel to be a political animal in the darkest sense of intrigue and stealth. Flee from such for many of these appear before the unsuspecting eye as an angel (messenger) of light.

[Dan'D]

You must remember UPC left the Tulsa 6, not the other way around. Think about all the changes that have gone on in the UPC over the last 10 - 15 years if it had happen all at one time every person at that church would leave. But because it has happen over a period of time we don't think about it.

The Bible and what God expect from us has not changed but churches have changed.

The Tulse 6 has a great following and there belief is grounded in the Bible. Over the period of time a lot of you will be eating your own words.

The UPC is not meant to be the spiritual leaders of the churches as much as organizational leaders. Each Pastor must lead his own church. Bro Haney will not answer to god about the church I attend. My pastor will answer to God regarding the church I attend. This is how it was meant to be. This is bible God chose my pastor to lead my church. Bro Haney was voted in. The resolution was voted in. Each pastor has the obligation to determined what is right for his church. He must answer to God for that.

I have spoke with many of saint that say a good percentage of the people in there church have a TV in there home. The reason is the Pastor has not felt that is was that important. AS well as other standards. The UPC has changed and it would take a blind person not to see that.

So again I say ”the UPC left us.”

Dan’D

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1Pe 2:13 ¶ Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;


1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.


1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.


1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

No one is under any obligation to join a man made organization or denomination, but once you do, behave yourself and live according to the instructions given to you by the Apostle of the Lord here, and for the sake of Christ, the laws of the organization. These eccelesiastical magistrates ARE ordained of God for the purpose that they are placed there because there IS no power that is not ordained of God.

Once bound to those laws though it is not sin, it could become iniquitous when one operates outside the laws of Divine Love to engage in political intrigue and stealth for the sake of wordly power outside the kingdom laws of LOVE. To behave CONTRARY to those laws renders that malcontent a rebel against established, God ordained powers.

God knows that there is a lot of wicked, political intrigue that goes on in those denominations and organizations. To use those methods to gain power or advance an agenda is wicked. However, no one within that fellowship is compelled to participate in that wickeness. It is the way of WORLDLINESS which character we are told to love NOT. It will pass away and the LUST thereof along with it.

Meanwhile, rebellion is as wicked as it is the core of the spirit of a rebel to be a political animal in the darkest sense of intrigue and stealth. Flee from such for many of these appear before the unsuspecting eye as an angel (messenger) of light.

Yes, indeed. So you admit that all those who sign their affirmation statement with NO INTENTION of abiding by it are full of lawlessness and iniquity, right?

Selective enforcement of the rules allowed such UPC preachers to go from being a cutting edge minority to a voting majority. It is just such iniquitous men that voted Res 4 in, right?

So therefore, the Tulsa 6 are FLEEING INIQUITY, right?

Or did you not really mean that part about behavior contrary to the laws indicating malcontention and rebellion?

This ain't the Catholic Church, friend.
An elected official thousands of miles away is not truly a spiritual authority over a local pastor.

Your underlying premise that the Tulsa 6 did not first attempt to foment change from within the UPC is utterly hysterical.

Other than that, you write a good piece!

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1Pe 2:13 ¶ Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;


1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.


1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.


1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

No one is under any obligation to join a man made organization or denomination, but once you do, behave yourself and live according to the instructions given to you by the Apostle of the Lord here, and for the sake of Christ, the laws of the organization. These eccelesiastical magistrates ARE ordained of God for the purpose that they are placed there because there IS no power that is not ordained of God.

Once bound to those laws though it is not sin, it could become iniquitous when one operates outside the laws of Divine Love to engage in political intrigue and stealth for the sake of wordly power outside the kingdom laws of LOVE. To behave CONTRARY to those laws renders that malcontent a rebel against established, God ordained powers.

God knows that there is a lot of wicked, political intrigue that goes on in those denominations and organizations. To use those methods to gain power or advance an agenda is wicked. However, no one within that fellowship is compelled to participate in that wickeness. It is the way of WORLDLINESS which character we are told to love NOT. It will pass away and the LUST thereof along with it.

Meanwhile, rebellion is as wicked as it is the core of the spirit of a rebel to be a political animal in the darkest sense of intrigue and stealth. Flee from such for many of these appear before the unsuspecting eye as an angel (messenger) of light.

So are you saying that all those years ago that you were in rebellion when you scratched your name off of that letter for the preacher??

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

So are you saying that all those years ago that you were in rebellion when you scratched your name off of that letter for the preacher??

Now you have quit preaching and started meddlin'

If you will remember, it was only a request from the pastor. Nevertheless, it would not have been a request that I opposed...even then...IF, I had not been warned in advance.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Now you have quit preaching and started meddlin'

If you will remember, it was only a request from the pastor. Nevertheless, it would not have been a request that I opposed...even then...IF, I had not been warned in advance.

So there are times when one is going to have to separate, or even oppose, their "authority", right. I believe it is to be done in a right spirit. I personally believe that there are times that it is Gods will that there be a separation, as in the case of Paul and Barnabas.

I am all for being submitted to the authority over you. But I feel like you are making it a blanket statement, and there is never, ever any time when one would pull away from their authority. I do not agree. The apostolic movement of the 20th century was birthed out of men leaving the authority for what they believed was right.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

Yes, indeed. So you admit that all those who sign their affirmation statement with NO INTENTION of abiding by it are full of lawlessness and iniquity, right?

Selective enforcement of the rules allowed such UPC preachers to go from being a cutting edge minority to a voting majority. It is just such iniquitous men that voted Res 4 in, right?

So therefore, the Tulsa 6 are FLEEING INIQUITY, right?

Or did you not really mean that part about behavior contrary to the laws indicating malcontention and rebellion?

This ain't the Catholic Church, friend.
An elected official thousands of miles away is not truly a spiritual authority over a local pastor.

Your underlying premise that the Tulsa 6 did not first attempt to foment change from within the UPC is utterly hysterical.

Other than that, you write a good piece!

If you are a Tulsaite, instead of making this GRAND exit reminscent of the Kruchechev walk out at the UN, why not bring the Word of God to bear in such a powerful way within the present fellowship that it will call ALL to repentance, thereby saving far more than the exiting few who are ALREADY saved?

Remember, IF it truly is the Word of God that you bring to bear on the issue within the current fellowship, IT (the Word) is quick, powerful and sharper than any two edged sword... Rememeber, IF it is truly the Word of God, IT will accomplish that wherein it was sent...not returning VOID.

So, in light of the TRUTH of the power of the Word...WHY NOT SAVE THE REST OF US LOST SOULS?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

If you are a Tulsaite, instead of making this GRAND exit reminscent of the Kruchechev walk out at the UN, why not bring the Word of God to bear in such a powerful way within the present fellowship that it will call ALL to repentance, thereby saving far more than the exiting few who are ALREADY saved?

Remember, IF it truly is the Word of God that you bring to bear on the issue within the current fellowship, IT (the Word) is quick, powerful and sharper than any two edged sword... Rememeber, IF it is truly the Word of God, IT will accomplish that wherein it was sent...not returning VOID.

So, in light of the TRUTH of the power of the Word...WHY NOT SAVE THE REST OF US LOST SOULS?

So you believe Haywood and Goss should have stayed in the AoG?