I believe in once saved, always saved!

[Scott Hutchinson]

I believe that John 6:37 speaks of the foreknowledge of God,and everybody that turns to God in sincerity and truth Christ will not cast out.
I do believe God knows who will and who will not come to Him,but man can reject God.
I disagree with irrestible grace,and no I'm not to looking for a debate either.
But I'll study this out a little more.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by augustianian

i don't just try to answer a question, I try to prove my answer (It drives me up the wall when some just make statements without ever intending to prove it). I regret that I didn't make myself clear to you but I just assumed that you would be able to see that I rejected your contention that Paul was using hyperbole. And if I disagreed with you then naturally Paul, I believe, was really saying God hated Esau.

So I don't see any reason for juxtaposing what Paul said and the verse you quoted.

Its irrelevant for a multitude of reasons.

I hope that is considered me touching your point.

Its invalid.

I don't know if you don't get the point or if you just chose to continue ignoring the point.

I will try again, "if you can hate your immediate family members and still please God then the word hate does not mean what we general understand it to mean.

Likewise, God does not hate Esau in that manner either.

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I don't know if you don't get the point or if you just chose to continue ignoring the point.

I will try again, "if you can hate your immediate family members and still please God then the word hate does not mean what we general understand it to mean.

Likewise, God does not hate Esau in that manner either.

I get your point. I disagree with your point. I used a reductio ad absurdum argument to point out to you that your point concerning Romans 9 is invalid.

So I get your point, and I disagree with it, and I dealt with it. So you can't accuse me of ignorance nor ignoring you.

I actually believe that God loved Jacob....

well, in the same manner I believe that God hated Esau. Just as much as He loved Jacob He hated Esau so that His purpose in election might stand. (Romans 9:11-15). I have already said this in a previous reply.

You know Im a Calvinist...so why would you think I would agree with your point.

Disagreement doesn't indicate misunderstanding.

a

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

I believe that John 6:37 speaks of the foreknowledge of God,and everybody that turns to God in sincerity and truth Christ will not cast out.
I do believe God knows who will and who will not come to Him,but man can reject God.
I disagree with irrestible grace,and no I'm not to looking for a debate either.
But I'll study this out a little more.

Yes God knows who will come and who will not come to Him...but He knows such information because He elects those who will come, and in that respect His grace is irresistible because He does not know of anyone whom He gives to the Son that will not come.

The type of Arminian foreknowledge that, following your post, I assume you believe cannot be found in John 6:37. In fact, it can't be found in the whole of scriptures.

a

[Scott Hutchinson]

Originally Posted by augustianian

Yes God knows who will come and who will not come to Him...but He knows such information because He elects those who will come, and in that respect His grace is irresistible because He does not know of anyone whom He gives to the Son that will not come.

The type of Arminian foreknowledge that, following your post, I assume you believe cannot be found in John 6:37. In fact, it can't be found in the whole of scriptures.

a

Judas was picked by Christ to be a disciple,did Judas resist grace when he betrayed Christ ?
I do not see perserverance of the saints as taught in Calvinism, but hey I consider you as a friend and I can disagree with you without blasting you.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The ultimate redemption of all, with curative punishment is the only position that answers all the questions. Just like a loving and wise parent, God calls and seeks and endlessly pursues the ultimate surrender of each of His creation. Some thru the fire, and some thru the flood, but all thru the blood the He once and for ALL shed for all creatures, on earth, under the earth, in heaven and ALL that are in them.

With man it is impossible, yet thru God ALL things are possible.

That sounds like a nice pitch of your universalism doctrine CJ....but again no scriptures. Your position is unbiblical.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

If you can hate father, mother, wife, children, brother and sister without really "hating" them. I think God can "hate" Esau without really hating him.

Both are analogies, hope you get the point, hyperbole in both cases.

prove that both are analogies...God says "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" and you say hated does not really mean hate...well then loved does not mean loved...now you have a God of confusion. God did not lie. Jesus was using a hyperbole. He was not speaking about God. We know Jesus taught in sayings. He used parables. And looking at the other gospels and the same story in them we see the point is we need to love God more than family.

BTW CJ weren't you asked not to promote your Universalism doctrine anywhere other than the debate board?

[Admin]

It is unfortunate that this topic was taken over by another. If you wish to discuss Universalism please do so in the debate forum for salvational issues