An Uncertain Sound

[Hawkman]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

AMEN Bro!

Hawkman,
What you have written is one more reason why I wouldn't join the UPC. To think that org has such callous men that can't be in leadership and obey the authority that they willingly have over them (no one forced you join the UPC) makes the whole org look bad. Also, lying is so serious that the Bible tells us they would go to the Lake of Fire. Now I wouldn't say one would go to hell for having a tv (unless personally convicted and then disobedient), but you are in an org and you sign a statement that says that you uphold what the manual teaches and in fact, that's a lie. You don't fear this sort of thing. If you want to own a tv, fine, go indep or ALJC or something esle, but for the sake of your soul, stop lying and disobeying the org which you yourself have aligned yourself with.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

The problem is that the AS only pulled the screen back on the hypocrisy that already existed. Here I am, and no one knows who I am. (which is why I'm free to share it) I just go about my business and everyone thinks I am model of UPC holiness. I have a TV lilke HUNDREDS if not a couple thousand of my fellow ministers and some of you are criticizing me. That's fine. If you can't sleep at night over my horrible sin, then I'll catch a few winks for ya!

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Hawkman

So I follow the example of my leaders by sigining and not worrying about it, and I'M the one who makes the UPC look bad? Were we not ALL told by the GS that if we signed and sent it in that no one would challenge it?

Some of you are really a piece of work. I am doing exactly what I was told to do and now I'm accused of making something look bad. Really, the UPC doesn't need ME to look bad. I am just telling the TRUTH that so many won't tell.

There are too many who don't tell it and then appear so holy!

What other does or say is not the point. Is it lying to sign something saying you will not have a TV, but have one????

[ManOfWord]

Being a "casualty" of the AS myself, I can tell you that it had nothing whatsoever to do with TV. I knew that I wasn't being as strict on the holiness standards as the manual was. I signed like most everybody else did until my conscience started to bother me. Then I ceased to sign, but I sent in my dues so that they wouldn't drop for failure to pay my "taxes."

I know many others who made and are continually making a different choice than I did. That is between them and the Lord. I will neither criticize nor castigate someone for signing or staying in the org and having a TV. I think the Hawk is right on target in his estimation of how many ministers have a TV. I know that there are many who don't and will never, but I really don't think that is a majority.

The uncertain sound, IMO, is minoring on the heart and majoring on the flesh.

[pastorj]

Do you answer to the GS or to God? I think it doesn't matter what the GS said, or what I thought he said, I wouldn't lie for him or anyone else. My word is worth more than that to me... Don't confuse the issue by appealing to other people's actions to lend credibility to your own.

If the pastor is a liar, what kind of congregation does he have? Sounds like a bunch I'd like to pastor... :-)

[Sept5SavedTeen]

One's word meaning something, there's a thought...

Why don't you say who you are, like a man? Come out and say, "I am Pastor so-and-so and this is the UPC church I pastor", let's just have it out on this issue. Why don't you tell your district board this? You are truly one who wants to be hidden, and brother, tv isn't the thing that's wrong that your hiding, it's the lying that's wrong. If you were a pastor with a tv, I wouldn't think a thing of it, but you chose to be in the UPC and you sign a statement saying you believe and follow the rules of your org... Ahhh! I could go on forever, why don't you just say who you are?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Pastor G]

Hawkman, There is not one preacher on this forum, liscensed by the UPC that believes, adheres to and teaches everything in the manual, yet they sign the affirmation statement..

The then GS, NAU, wrote a cover letter when the first AS was sent out to sign, reminding everyone of us that each church is autonomous, meaning we all have some latitude in defining some of the things in there that are not doctrinal... He did it because he knew that there are some that teach it harder and some that teach it softer than the manual... One of the main ones that came up with the resolution to impliment the AS doesn't believe in divorce and remarriage under any circumstance, which is against the manual, and he is totally against women preachers which is against the UPC beliefs...
Yet he signs it...

The AS is a waste and I trust it will be done away with soon...

The thing a lot of people don't understand is that you can write anything on that statement you want to... even write on there what you don't believe that is in the manual, and then sign it and they will not do anything as long as your signature is there... I, personally write several things on there and then sign it, they just keep sending me my card....

Originally Posted by Hawkman

Real simple answer. I did NOT lie to get my minister's license. Regarding the AS, quite simply, yes, I have lied when I signed it, according to YOUR view. I will continue to sign it as long as I wish and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I double dog dare anyone to try to take my license for simply having a TV. It ain't gonna happen and everyone knows it ain't gonna happen. It would start a firestorm.

You sound a LOT like Richard Gazowsky! ROFL

Originally Posted by pelathais

Agreed, MoW, and Hawkman brings up an interesting point:

Since "television" in all of its myriad forms has been in the UPC for decades really, what has the effect been?

The most telling effect has been our own hypocrisy. But aside from that; what have we seen?

I've sat with some of the most conservative of brethren as their conversation on college basketball left me far, far behind in the dark. I couldn't even talk to these guys in a friendly banter because they had such a wealth of knowledge and an in depth understanding, not just of the rankings but getting right down to players and coaches and their skills and history. These guys will be in Tulsa.

I'm not condemning them for their basketball, I just wonder how they keep so up to date and possess such a detailed knowledge of schools that are no where near to where they live. The answer? They enjoy college basketball on television. Hi guys! Say "Howdy" to brothers Booker and Wilson for me.

But aside from our hypocrisy, how has television already affected the UPC and Apostolic fellowship?

Pel,

Is the statement in bold your assumption or is it absolute fact?

I am a sports fan and I get my details of that sort from the team websites, NCAA web sites, NBA Web sites, and other focused sites. Before I came back to God almost 9 years ago, I never got my statistics from television! I got my statistics from magazines or web sites.

If your statement is an assumption then I say it is way off base. If it is a known fact then TV must have really changed in the last nine years because that kind of detail data was not routinely or even occasionally available on TV.

[tv1a]

The Sporting News used to be a great resource for stats.

Originally Posted by philjones

Pel,

Is the statement in bold your assumption or is it absolute fact?

I am a sports fan and I get my details of that sort from the team websites, NCAA web sites, NBA Web sites, and other focused sites. Before I came back to God almost 9 years ago, I never got my statistics from television! I got my statistics from magazines or web sites.

If your statement is an assumption then I say it is way off base. If it is a known fact then TV must have really changed in the last nine years because that kind of detail data was not routinely or even occasionally available on TV.

Originally Posted by tv1a

The Sporting News used to be a great resource for stats.

That was my number one source... mostly during baseball season... because they had all the minor league stats and I mean MINOR leagues . I had friends that I had played ball with before my dad felt I had outgrown organized sports who were playing in everything from Mexican leagues to triple A and a couple were in the majors for a little while (Randy Bass and Greg Legg).

Sporting News was the Grit of the sports world.

Now it is an internet access thing. I don't get Sports Illustrated any more but I do get ESPN the magazine and I NEVER read it. Continental Airlines made my use my limited excess miles for magazine subscriptions so I got all the golf mags i could and then ESPN..