Bott 2023

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by n david

I've seen several photos and posts of Mickey Mangun and Tennie McCarty, who is a licensed therapist (not Apostolic). McCarty has been to POA to speak with the ministry there as well.

Could someone who was there and heard the context please tell me what this means? I could interpret this in a couple of different ways. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. But the meme lacks needed context.

That is a very strange picture.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by n david

I've seen several photos and posts of Mickey Mangun and Tennie McCarty, who is a licensed therapist (not Apostolic). McCarty has been to POA to speak with the ministry there as well.

Could someone who was there and heard the context please tell me what this means? I could interpret this in a couple of different ways. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. But the meme lacks needed context.

You’re probably reading too much into it.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I was there. Your past can't stop you. God can help you overcome your past.

How does God help you?

I’m asking this because the solution to problems have scattered all over the field. Does the church needs licensed therapists that are not even in the faith? Do we need medication for depression or anxiety?
Does God help us through the arm of doctors and medication?

Not asking for a debate, just want to get your point of view.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

I heard, maybe some can correct me if it's wrong, that Sis M got up and endorsed anti depression meds. Then Bro Morgan got up and preached against them?

Did that happen? Just heard that was all.

That was Mickey. I believe Sis. Alvear was talking about Vesta.

Originally Posted by Costeon

No, Sis Mangun taught a session on the struggles with mental health that even apostolics can have but are often too ashamed to admit, but I do not recall her pushing antidepressants. I don't recall her mentioning medication at all, but would that have been different than endorsing taking medication for other problems with the body? At any rate, no one preached against what she said. Elias Limones did preach after her and emphasized how when life is bitter we need to go back to the lamb of God, drawing on the passover meal of the lamb and the bitter herbs. Life contains bitterness but also the sweetness and sustenance of the lamb.

I listened to Mickey's talk and was somewhat troubled by a couple of things she talked about.

First, (this isn't troubling, but helps to understand the push for mental health talks at BOTT the past few years) the subject of mental illness and mental health is personal to Mickey. She tells a story of her own struggle and that of her granddaughter.

I had to rewind a couple of times to ensure I heard it correctly, but at 28:22 she said "Jesus came for more reasons than just to connect us to God."

Jesus did give several reasons why He came, "to do the will of the Father," to bring light, to bring a sword, to bring judgment, etc. But each reason and the main reason was to connect us to God.

She quoted Romans 7:18, then asks if "this person" is possibly experiencing a mental disorder or are they convicted because they're sinning? Then she says we connect sin with mental illness.

She promotes Dr. Caroline Leaf, a cognitive neuroscientist and communication pathologist, and has attended her seminars, and read her books. She recommended everyone read one of her books. Leaf also reinterprets scripture to fit her narrative. 2 Tim 1:7 she claims "fear" means "anxiety" and "sound mind" refers to "mental wholeness." She does the same with Proverbs 21:7.

Mickey uses Proverbs 21:7 as well, though I have heard that verse used out of context by more than just Leaf and Micky. "As a man thinks so is he." It's not about the mind or mental health. That scripture is about a petty host who is calculating or adding up the costs of his guests as they sit and eat, pretending to be happy and sharing their meal but his heart isn't with them.

Tennie McCarty and Shades of Hope was promoted by Mickey and by Misty Calk, who was brought up towards the end. One of the things McCarty and SOH does is "Inner Child Therapy," which is trying to go back into your childhood to determine if there's some kind of unresolved trauma or issues. This is one of my main objections to therapists. I don't believe in going back to the past and dredging up potential trauma or issues. Especially not as an Apostolic who believes in regeneration. The past is under the blood, leave it there.

I posted a photo earlier of a quote and asked for context. The quote was "Alcohol and addictions cannot stop us from being who God has called us to be." After hearing it in context, I cannot agree. She's referring to current alcohol use and current addictions. The very next thing she says is, "I hang out weekly with the most beloved, struggling, honest, overcoming addicted people in this church. People who have been in and out of recovery centers so many times they've lost count."

So in that context, yes, alcohol and addictions both can and will stop you from being who God has called you to be.

I still have reservations about this push for Apostolics to seek mental health treatments with therapists.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I was there. Your past can't stop you. God can help you overcome your past.

Unfortunately, she wasn't talking about the past. She gave that quoted statement and went directly into "I hang out weekly with the most beloved, struggling, honest, overcoming addicted people in this church. People who have been in and out of recovery centers so many times they've lost count."

In context what she said was, "Current alcoholism and current addictions cannot stop us from being who God has called us to be."

I don't agree.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by n david

Unfortunately, she wasn't talking about the past. She gave that quoted statement and went directly into "I hang out weekly with the most beloved, struggling, honest, overcoming addicted people in this church. People who have been in and out of recovery centers so many times they've lost count."

In context what she said was, "Current alcoholism and current addictions cannot stop us from being who God has called us to be."

I don't agree.

If this is so, I stand corrected. I heard hours of preaching that day and the other days of BOTT, so I apparently didn't remember what she said correctly.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

How does God help you?

I’m asking this because the solution to problems have scattered all over the field. Does the church needs licensed therapists that are not even in the faith? Do we need medication for depression or anxiety?
Does God help us through the arm of doctors and medication?

Not asking for a debate, just want to get your point of view.

It seems to me that God does help us through doctors and medication. If the source of someone's mental issues is physical--something is wrong with their brain--then I would definitely think medication was in order if they were not healed through prayer. I'm not sure about other situations with depression and anxiety. I guess if after repeated prayer they were not healed, and their depression or anxiety was a great hinderance to them in life, medication might be in order.

My preference would be for God to simply heal. Obviously. I would want him to do this so that he gets all the glory and credit in every situation, and it seems to me that saying that God heals through doctors and medication does not seem to give him the same glory or credit as doing it directly would.

If God alone is supposed to heal all our issues if we have faith, I have never been around anyone with this kind of faith. The greatest men and women of God I know of have not healed everyone, and they themselves have needed the assistance of doctors.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by n david

That was Mickey. I believe Sis. Alvear was talking about Vesta.



I listened to Mickey's talk and was somewhat troubled by a couple of things she talked about.

First, (this isn't troubling, but helps to understand the push for mental health talks at BOTT the past few years) the subject of mental illness and mental health is personal to Mickey. She tells a story of her own struggle and that of her granddaughter.

I had to rewind a couple of times to ensure I heard it correctly, but at 28:22 she said "Jesus came for more reasons than just to connect us to God."

Jesus did give several reasons why He came, "to do the will of the Father," to bring light, to bring a sword, to bring judgment, etc. But each reason and the main reason was to connect us to God.

She quoted Romans 7:18, then asks if "this person" is possibly experiencing a mental disorder or are they convicted because they're sinning? Then she says we connect sin with mental illness.

She promotes Dr. Caroline Leaf, a cognitive neuroscientist and communication pathologist, and has attended her seminars, and read her books. She recommended everyone read one of her books. Leaf also reinterprets scripture to fit her narrative. 2 Tim 1:7 she claims "fear" means "anxiety" and "sound mind" refers to "mental wholeness." She does the same with Proverbs 21:7.

Mickey uses Proverbs 21:7 as well, though I have heard that verse used out of context by more than just Leaf and Micky. "As a man thinks so is he." It's not about the mind or mental health. That scripture is about a petty host who is calculating or adding up the costs of his guests as they sit and eat, pretending to be happy and sharing their meal but his heart isn't with them.

Tennie McCarty and Shades of Hope was promoted by Mickey and by Misty Calk, who was brought up towards the end. One of the things McCarty and SOH does is "Inner Child Therapy," which is trying to go back into your childhood to determine if there's some kind of unresolved trauma or issues. This is one of my main objections to therapists. I don't believe in going back to the past and dredging up potential trauma or issues. Especially not as an Apostolic who believes in regeneration. The past is under the blood, leave it there.

I posted a photo earlier of a quote and asked for context. The quote was "Alcohol and addictions cannot stop us from being who God has called us to be." After hearing it in context, I cannot agree. She's referring to current alcohol use and current addictions. The very next thing she says is, "I hang out weekly with the most beloved, struggling, honest, overcoming addicted people in this church. People who have been in and out of recovery centers so many times they've lost count."

So in that context, yes, alcohol and addictions both can and will stop you from being who God has called you to be.

I still have reservations about this push for Apostolics to seek mental health treatments with therapists.

Thanks for listening for us. This is sooo bad.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Costeon

It seems to me that God does help us through doctors and medication. If the source of someone's mental issues is physical--something is wrong with their brain--then I would definitely think medication was in order if they were not healed through prayer. I'm not sure about other situations with depression and anxiety. I guess if after repeated prayer they were not healed, and their depression or anxiety was a great hinderance to them in life, medication might be in order.

My preference would be for God to simply heal. Obviously. I would want him to do this so that he gets all the glory and credit in every situation, and it seems to me that saying that God heals through doctors and medication does not seem to give him the same glory or credit as doing it directly would.

If God alone is supposed to heal all our issues if we have faith, I have never been around anyone with this kind of faith. The greatest men and women of God I know of have not healed everyone, and they themselves have needed the assistance of doctors.

I just find it very interesting that in modern Pentecost, a preacher can go to churches all over this country and preach on depression and anxiety and how many in the church are struggling with this condition.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I just find it very interesting that in modern Pentecost, a preacher can go to churches all over this country and preach on depression and anxiety and how many in the church are struggling with this condition.

Maybe the stigma has been removed and now they’re not afraid to talk about it!?